Great Houses

All right.

Hello, everybody.

Welcome to this episode of The Great Houses Forum.

Today we're gonna be talking with Mike Faulkner.

He is, uh, a friend of mine and a devoted Christian and, and one of the guys that, uh, I think has, uh, been able to, to do this thing that we are
talking about, um, in this community more effectively than, than, than almost anyone I'm aware of, so I'm delighted to have him on the podcast today.

So thanks so much for being with us, Mike.

Why don't you, uh, why don't you introduce yourself?

Tell us a little about, about you and your, your accomplishments.

Um, uh, okay.

So, um, thanks, Greg.

So I'm a, I'm a Brit, as you can tell from my funny accent.

Um, I, I'm some- the … I, I don't have the Texas twang, or at least not yet, although I lived- I've lived in Texas for, uh, s- probably since about, um, 2018.

Um, background is in financial services, so I've, I've built and taken companies public, I've sold them, um, you name it.

Um, in fact, the most- probably the most recent one I did, Greg was actually part of.

And, um, and but at the same time I'm involved in, um, a bunch of different ministries in a bunch of different ways, from the sort of the, the, uh, normal straightforward ones you'd expect, all the way to the, the slightly more extreme ones.

Um, and so I, I guess the, the journey I've been on with the Lord has been one where, um, He's shown me quite a lot of things about how to, um, how to think about wealth, how to think about your faith, how do you think about, um, ministry.

And, and where that sort of led me is, is, uh, I, I've seen, I've seen quite a lot of what goes right and what goes wrong Um, and, and that's not to necessarily pass any judgment on, on anything or other, but I- I've got to see

I, I think, I, I think I'm, I'm probably relatively unusual in that I've seen a quite a lot of ministry, but also I've done quite a lot of money-making, if that makes sense.

Yes.

Yes.

So, um, so I, I've kind of seen the wealth and the ministry piece from both sides, and I'm kind of straddling the two at the same time, um, which, which leads to an interesting existence.

Um, I'm married.

I have four children, very happily married, wonderful wife, much more godly than I am.

Um, and, um, but, but actually, as I'm sure will come out in all of this, I, I actually believe very strongly that … And, and hon- actually, I see this quite a lot, that, um, a, a strong godly marriage is at the heart of almost all of this.

It, like, starts with a godly marriage.

Um- Very much so.

Very much so … and I'm blessed to have one.

Absolutely.

Yeah, I mean, that's … It, it … One of the, one of the things, you know, I, I call this the Great Houses Forum 'cause we're, we're trying to spark conversations about how do we- Yeah … how do we build these, these ideas?

And, you know, one of the, one of the, the concepts that I like to talk a lot about is, is covenant and covenantal qualification.

And, you know, basically the, uh, the- Mm … the minimum qualification to do any of the more complex stuff is gonna be to have a marriage, hold it together, have it ordered the way God designed and, and be able

And, and in many ways, you know, especially kind of in the modern climate, just be unusually fortunate or unusually blessed, depending on your, how- however you frame those sorts of things, I suppose, for the, for the audience.

Um, you and I frame it mu- much the same.

Um, you, you have to be unusually blessed in your, in your spouse.

Uh, that's- Yeah … that's just kind of one of those, one of those initial cutoffs.

And, you know, I've known incredibly talented people, but they didn't have the marriage.

And, uh, and, and, you know, at, at a certain point you just come to the realization of this isn't gonna go if you don't have, if you don't have the marriage.

So you and I, you know, we, we talk from time to time, and, and we, we've been having, um, we've been having some interesting conversations.

One of the things that I'd like to do, I, I'm kind of inserting you in the middle of an ongoing conversation that I'm having here on, on the podcast about, um, basically how do we, how do we
create structures where people can, can place resources and, and kind of like, let's say, bet long on their families, on their communities, um, and ultimately on their cities and their nations?

Uh, you know- Yeah … I've got a, a friend of mine who, uh, uh, was- Mm … was in one of the, the Charlie Kirk chat rooms right around the time that COVID was happening.

And, uh, and Charlie Kirk placed … He, he … There were several companies that just got hammered in the COVID crash, and Charlie Kirk encouraged
several people, um, uh, to, to invest heavily in some of these, these devalued stocks because he's like, "This, these are, these are American companies.

There's nothing wrong with them," right?

Yeah.

"We are just experiencing kind of a government imposition that, that will end." Um- And, you know, we've gotta, we've gotta frame it, uh,
y- y- you know, I think the, the line that struck my friend, uh, that was in the chat room was, "Why would you bet against America," right?

And so he, he, Charlie Kirk bet on America.

He, you know, my friend bet on America, and did quite well for himself, uh, you know- Yeah … in, in those things.

But frankly, that's kind of an unusual situation.

Most of the time, the options that are presented us look more like shorting our family, shorting our, our marriage, having, having, you know, well, if this goes wrong, here's how I'm gonna have, you know, my way out.

Here's my alternative plan.

Here's, here's how I expect to be able to, uh, to in some ways even benefit if, if the people in my life prove to be unreliable.

Um, and, you know, when, when, when the only long-term bet that you can place is I'm gonna bet against the success of, of, of my covenants, well, after a little bit, you s- you have less and less covenants.

Um, that's, that's actually- Yeah … how that works a lot of the time.

Mm-hmm.

And so, uh, you know, just, just wanted to, to, to throw that, that across the bow and get your, your reflection on that in light of the things that we've talked about.

And at some point, hopefully in this conversation we'll get to, you had a very interesting idea what you called an investment company,
and I'd love for you to explain that, uh, to the people that are, that are listening because it's just a, it's a, it's a really cool idea.

But, but, but, but first- Okay … talk about, talk to me about betting long and short on your family.

Okay.

So, so c- can I… 'Cause I think you've asked about six questions in there at the same time.

Pick whichever one you like.

Let, let me, let me, let… Well, let me split some of this out.

So, um, I think betting on America, like economically betting on America, uh, is, is partly about, you know, the American system, but partly about America has massive, massive natural advantages- Mm-hmm

right, as an economy.

I mean, and, and just, uh, to the point where America really does have to screw it up, um, not to compete really well.

I mean, so just to give you an example of this, I think, uh, I think from memory, America has like a third of the world's waterways.

Right?

Yes.

I mean, it's, it's an astonishing number, but the, the, the, um, economically, the ability to get stuff from one place to another, um, via water
is just an order of magnitude cheaper, and therefore, the fact that America's got so many waterways is a natural economic advantage, right?

I mean, just extraordinary.

So I, I think that the, the idea that you wouldn't bet against America… America's also one of only two economies that, that could ever be self-sufficient, China being the other one.

Um, everyone else is miles away from being self-sufficient.

It's got really good natural borders, it's got really good natural defenses.

I mean, it has absolutely everything going for it.

So I, I think the idea that don't bet against America is, is, isn't just a covenantal, you know, uh, Western democracy idea.

It's, it's as, it's as much just a natural economic resource as one.

So I think that's, that's part of it.

Can, can I- Sure … can I, um, can I share a, a central idea?

So I, I think quite often when I'm, when I'm dealing with this issue with people, and quite often I'm finding myself dealing with this with people who are trying to work out what to do with their business and how to think about this whole thing.

Uh, the, the, the thing to get your head around, uh, I would say, is that wealth is always and everywhere a claim on human activity, right?

So you own shares in a company, you own shares in human activity.

You, you own a bond, you own sh- you own a bond in human activity.

You own gold, you own something that's dependent on human activity.

Right.

Right?

So, uh, so however you look at it, whatever it is that you have that is, is a store of wealth is, is really just a claim on human activity.

And I would say that the thing that unlocks- And, and, and m- maybe- Sorry … maybe if I could interject, that the, the, the quality of the specific
human activity that you're, you're entrusting yourself to matters quite a bit and, and there are distinctions- Absolutely … to these things.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

And, and sometimes that human activity isn't great human activity, right?

But the, the, the, uh, the… What, so what I would generally say is if you're thinking about investment- Your, your, uh, it's, it's more logical to me, and anyway, this is my philosophy anyway.

You look at the human activity first and the claim second.

Mm-hmm.

Right?

Right.

And I think it is very, it's, it's very hard to, to start with human activity and not go straight to Romans 12, which is all about giftings.

Right.

Right?

So the, the, the thing that I, I've seen and I've, I, I, I've been a CEO, I've been, um, in fact, I've been a CEO probably for more than half my adult life.

Um, the thing I've seen over and over and over again is the biggest economic weakness I see that keeps on coming up again and again is, uh, is a failure to try and link the human activity to the giftings of the individuals, right?

Right.

So let me give you some examples that you see a lot, right?

So for example, and, and for those of you that, that, um, that maybe haven't spent a ton of time in Romans 12.

Romans 12 has, um … describes what were often called seven redemptive gifts, right?

And, and, and they cover, um, prophecy, which is, is really insight.

Prophecy just means insight.

Um, teaching, um, serving, leading, giving, exhorting, um, and, and what's called mercy, right?

People who've got compassion, right?

And, and I, I would describe some of these that are a little more, um … Sometimes people go, "I'm not really sure what that means." So an exhorter.

The, think, the way to think about an exhorter is they're the person that t- they're the people that are gonna sit down on a park bench and someone will sit down next to them and they're gonna know the life story within, you know, five minutes.

My wife's like that.

Right.

Just s- she'll sit next to someone and before she know … The, the … She'll walk through a room and she'll collect five friends in five minutes.

Mm-hmm.

Right?

I mean, it's just the- these people are just … And, and I, I notice this because I'm really not like that at all.

Um, the givers are often the hard ones, right?

Where … But you can tell a giver, um, I think if you just ask them one very straightforward question.

Givers have generally been mentoring people since they were a teen.

Mm-hmm.

Right?

They're the sort of person that people go to to ask advice of because, you know, they just kind of know stuff.

Yeah.

But the, the thing about, um, givers is they tend to see the world multi-generationally, so they, they see things in the very long term and their whole point about giving is that it will, it'll propagate through the long term.

Yeah.

Um, mercy, you, you can spot the people mercy … My, my daughter is a mercy, like a classic mercy where she has compassion on everybody.

The thing about mercies is quite often you'll find that they are, um, th- they've got more information coming at them than the rest of us, so sometimes it takes them a while to make a decision.

So, so if you, if you know a mercy and you get frustrated with them 'cause you're not a mercy because they seem to take forever to make a decision, it's just 'cause they're processing like 10 times more information than you are.

Right?

Right.

So in a sense, you have to have a kind of heart for what it is that they, they bring to the table.

Now, I, I, I would say I've seen over the years, um, uh, mercies in accounting or finance in a company who are being asked to fill out reports the whole time, and they're just dying inside, right?

Not a good fit.

Not a good fit, right?

Right.

But it's re- it's remarkably more common than it ought to be.

You find exhorters in roles where the company

Like, they, often these guys are great sales guys, the exhorters, right?

Mm-hmm.

But they're not that disciplined.

Right.

So when legal kicks in and says, "Okay. Well, we need them to start filling out reports and doing the contracts," and they start dying inside as well.

And so, um, you, you … The, the, the point I'm making is unless the leaders take seriously the importance of fitting the role to the gifting, the whole thing will fail.

Right.

Right?

Well, a- and, and I mean, I think even at a more basic level, you're saying that the idea that we are just kind of one undifferentiated egalitarian mass, and all people can be fit equally into different roles, uh, is just nonsense.

So- People have natures.

Those nature, those natures basically come to you certainly by the time they're an adult predetermined, and you, you have to just work with whatever God, um, and, and a person's, you know, experience and parents and everything has- I-

has put into them in many ways … I, I would go much fur- I mean, I agree, Greg, but I would go much further, right?

So I would say that anyone that professes to be a leader … Sorry, I'm gonna … And I f- I, I'd ask the group to forgive me 'cause I'm probably gonna get a little riled up now.

Um, the, the, um, I think that it is a fundamental leadership failure- Not to fit people's giftings to the role that you give them, right?

Mm-hmm.

And the … I, I think at some point leaders will stand before God, and I, I live with this, I have lived with this for years, at some point the Lord will say to me, "Tell me what you did with my people." Right?

And people- Right … are the one resource that are meant to improve with use- Right … in value, right?

So they're meant to be more valuable in a year, uh, than they are now, right?

Right.

And it's your job to get them more valuable, and they're not gonna get more valuable if you ask them to do something they're not gifted for.

Right.

So I come back to the point, your, your, your single biggest role as a owner or a leader is to get

is to help people flourish in their gifting.

Right.

That's it, right?

Right.

And, and you, you, you start with the people first, you put the roles, you wrap the roles to help them flourish in their gifting, and if you've got gaps- Mm … then you need to go and try and find ways to fill the gap.

But your job as a leader- Right

isn't to insert people into roles that you come up with in your brain to help your mental clarity, right?

Because so often that is what happens.

Right.

Right?

The, the … It is … It's far more, um, it's far more important to look at the people the Lord has brought you, use them well, right?

And, and organize it in such a way that allows the, the, the claim on human activity to flourish as a result of the gifting of the individuals you've been given.

Right.

And, and that is absolutely true of a household too, right?

For sure.

Your job as the leader of the household is to get all the people you've been given, your kids, your wife, whomever it may be, the, the people … A- and household obviously as we both know extends beyond those that are biologically attached to you.

Right, for sure.

Right?

So, you know, the, the people that have become part of your household who may not have their own family, but you know, we have probably between five and 10 people who've been grafted in to our household.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

I'm responsible for them too, and my job is to help them flourish in their gifting as it is for my children, right?

So if I wanna be the leader of my household, I have to, I have to look at the world through human activity in a way that allows these people to be raised up, 'cause our job is to serve them- Right … by helping them flourish in their gifting, right?

So- Well- This is long-winded, I appreciate, so.

No, not at all.

I mean, I think, uh, that, that

This is why I wanted to have you on.

I mean, presumably some of our guests will, will Google you, and you will pop up as somebody who is a finance guy, and an unusually successful finance guy.

So- Mm-hmm … to, I mean, g- g- give people a little bit of background, like where, where did you start out, you know, in, in banking and hedge funds and these, these sorts of things, and, and- So, so-

and how did you, how did you … How … What, what, what, what have you done?

Because I think that, that, uh- Okay.

Uh- So I, so I- … I think that'd be valuable for people to appreciate … so I started … The … One of the reasons I'm allowed to be here is I've been visaged on the basis of having done something that the US says that was quite good, you can come.

Um, so, so I, I started in, um … I've been in investment my whole life, um, and I started a business in 2001.

Um, and, and invented something in 2003 that's now a $3 trillion industry.

Um, and that's not $3 trillion in value, it's thr- it's the amount of assets that are now being run.

And I invented a way of running money that is now, uh, um, uh, being applied to $3 trillion.

Uh, uh, that's, the, the, it's not… I, I don't have a claim on that, right?

If only that were patentable.

But we started doing that in 2003.

You know, BlackRock, all those guys are now huge in doing it too, but they copied us.

We were first Very good.

Very good And so we start then 2003, we were successful enough that, um

So I was CEO from 2001.

We took the company public in 2014.

Um, as early in 2009, I'd also helped to, uh, I'd founded another company with a friend of mine.

We took that public in 2018.

Um, uh, by that point I was, I think I was in the US.

Stepped down as CEO in 2019, um, primarily 'cause I, I kind of figured that, you know, there comes a point in which you've been CEO for long enough, especially when you're, um, you're not a small personality, let's say.

Mm-hmm.

Sure.

A- and it becomes impossible for anyone to succeed you, right?

It's just you've just been in the seat for too long and it … You're, you're handing someone a … So I took the view that if we're
gonna suc- if we're gonna do the succession well, I'm gonna step down and I'm gonna cheer on the person who's gonna take over from within.

So I did that in 2019.

Right.

Um, we ended up doing a buyout of the US company in, um, 2022.

Sold that to AJ Gallagher last year.

You were part of that.

Um- Mm-hmm … you, us, and Greg were part of that.

Um, and, uh, and so I, I've been involved in numerous of those kind of starting companies, buying into companies, fixing companies, et cetera, selling them on, et cetera.

Yeah.

But all with the same principle that it comes back to, um, claims on human activity and helping people flourish and the gifting.

The h- the principles run through all of it.

And so I, I've- Right … I've made a not insignificant amount of wealth in the process.

Um, I'm a financial professional, so running it's fine.

I don't need a third party to help me do that.

Um- Sure … and, uh, and so now I spend the majority of my time … I mean, I still have a small asset management business, um, but that's really raising up, raising up the guy that's been working with me for 15 years to have his own thing.

Um- Right … and then, and, uh, and, and then I'm, I'm kind of, I'm just involved now in trying to solve problems the Lord puts in front of me, right?

Well, yeah.

Well, and I mean, I just- Um … I, I, that, that … Thank you so much for that.

I think that, uh, that, that this is, this is the kind of thing that I wanted you to come on and talk about because I think it's so … Most
people when, when we think of the modern system, we think of people that are success- successful in a, in a financialized system, right?

I mean, managerial financialism is this idea that we can create financialized abstractions of underlying goods or services, and that whatever friction there is between
the, the, the actual goods and services and their abstractions is, is more than outweighed by our ability to kind of trade them very, very easily and very, very quickly.

Uh, you know, which works until it doesn't about every eight to 10 years, right?

Yeah.

And, and you've been incredibly successful in a financialized, you know, world in, in, in, in actual high finance, and your frame is what we've … The re- the way to be
successful is to actually understand what are the underlying things, what are the underlying goods and services that we're, that we ha- you know, have some kind of a claim on.

So, um- Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, I mean- Yeah, and I, and I, I think that, I think what you're hitting on there is it's very easy in finance to start with the numbers, and start- Right … with the goods and services.

I just, I just think that's the wrong way to go, and I think what I'm saying is I've seen that from within.

Mm-hmm.

Um, I think the right way to go is, is you start with the people.

Right.

Right?

Right.

And whatever follows is whatever follows.

I think the thing is, it's like the Holy Spirit is not within the tables and the chairs- Mm-hmm … and the computers.

Right.

The Holy Spirit's in the people, right?

Right.

And so if we profess to be Spirit-led

And, and I think I, I … Again, I believe this.

I believe when the, when the Bible in Proverbs 3 says, "The Lord will make your paths straight," right?

I think what that's saying to us is He'll make the paths straight, you won't.

Right.

Right?

So I believe if I'm going the wrong direction, He can turn me … In fact, He has done this numerous times.

He can turn me 180 without me really noticing.

Right.

Right?

I just have to keep walking, right?

Right.

And I think part of the … Uh, and this is … You know, it relates to … It's one of the challenges I see a lot.

Um, I … Let me tell you a story.

I've got a, a guy who I've been mentoring, discipling now for a few years, and, um- I'm really interested…

And I, and I found myself having to say to him something similar that I'd said to a whole bunch of other people.

I said, "The single biggest problem you've got in your faith at the moment is every morning you wake up and you try and work out what
you wanna do." Whereas I don't think that… I don't, uh, you know, you see the world through the tasks you've gotta get done- Right

but you don't see the world through how God's designed you to be.

Mm-hmm.

Right?

So if you start realizing that you've actually got God-given gifts- Mm-hmm … that are super powerful and super effective, and they speak to how you're
designed to relate to other people- Right … that actually the Lord puts you in rooms and says, "Go be who you're meant to be now, who I've designed you to be."

Right.

And, and in many cases, those tasks aren't things that you can plan.

They're not.

He, He puts you in the room to be what you're meant to be.

Right.

Right?

And- And the, the, the result of it comes, comes out of you naturally, if you will.

Absolutely.

Right.

And it will… And, and it may not be for you to do anything other than be who you're designed to be.

Right.

But if you, if you keep on focusing on the tasks, you kind of miss all the really cool stuff.

Hmm.

Right?

Yeah.

So I think quite a lot of the human activity, it, it comes down to how, how these relationships work.

I mean, clearly in a business at some point you do have to do something.

Sure.

Sure, sure.

But I think you, you can get to the point where the doing swamps the being.

Right.

Right?

Well, and I mean, I think, I think in order… You know, one of the things is, uh, that, that's lovely about you and your framework is it all kind of fits together, right?

The, the, the, the view of leadership that you articulated earlier- Yeah … the job of a leader is to make sure that everyone is
basically in a role that, that aligns with their gifting is, is, I, I would say, you know, I mean, barring miraculous intervention, right?

God, you know, you can, you can have somebody that's, that's, that's following God, and God kind of bend reality around them to protect them from what would otherwise be the natural consequences of them behaving that way in the system they're in.

But in, you know, if, if we want people to be able to focus on being a certain sort of person, then they…

probably it would be a good idea to have leadership that has placed them in a position that more or less aligns with that, with that from a, from a, a gifting- 100- … and calling perspective.

100%, yeah.

And, and it… And, and the whole thing about individual gifting, I, I… So I have a great deal of sympathy for people who are going, "Well, I, I, I…

Like, my gifting, I don't know what my gifting is." Right.

And I think the job of leaders or mentors or whomever can, can be to pull it out.

One of the things that I… So I, I've had this many, many, many times over the years, where I have a conversation with someone and I'll say to them, "Do you realize how good you are at this?"

And they'll say, "Well- I mean, yeah, everybody is Now, you and I have had a conversation like that- Right … once upon a time.

Right.

Well, that's not hard.

That I, I… And I think I said to you, "Well, that, that's not hard at all." And you, and you- It's a… No, it's just you.

Yeah.

Right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

The, the rest of us are morons at this, right?

I, I'm- Right … and I'm certainly… Uh, the part of the challenge is when you're really… When you're gifted at something, you're good enough at it that it's as easy as breathing.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

Right?

And as a result, people who are that good at something, where it's as easy as breathing, diminish the gift- Mm

because it's so easy.

Right.

Right?

Right.

And often it takes somebody else to say, "No, it's just you. The rest of us find this unbelievably hard." Right.

Right?

You just seem to be able to do it with your eyes closed and as easy as br- as breathing.

A- and therefore, we need to help you understand how good you are at this thing, because actually, that's central to the whole, the whole thing.

So I've found that quite often it takes somebody else to unlock the gifting- Right … in someone, because they've diminished it.

Right.

Right?

That's very interesting.

And, and so I, I, I have a great deal of sympathy for people who will say, "Well, I don't know what my… Don't want my gifting, calling." I, I, I, I don't love calling, 'cause I think it's something different.

Sure.

And I really don't love purpose.

Mm. So when people talk about purpose- Mm … I actually think it's often counterproductive.

They say, "Well, I don't know what my purpose is." And I would say, "I don't think it really matters what your purpose is.

What matters is your gifting, shaping." Mm-hmm.

And I, I'll give you an example.

You can, you can be gifted for mercy, and you can reflect that in a bunch of different purposes, right?

Right.

So you can do that as a nurse, you can do it as a carer, you can do it in a ton of different… You can do it in HR, in a company.

Right.

The, the central thing is it's not that any of those things are right and wrong, right?

The, the central premise is you're shaped.

You end, may end up doing all of those things at some point in your life.

Right.

Right?

Right.

But the, the central thing is you're, you're shaped or gifted in a particular way, and to use that, right?

Wonderful.

As opposed to aligning it to a purpose, I think actually that's often counterproductive.

Right.

Because people see the, see the world as directional, right?

Mm-hmm.

Uh, and that often inhibits the extent to which the Lord can intervene and straighten your path for you.

Yeah.

If you just focus on being what you're shaped to be-

The path was just straight and for you.

Yeah.

I, you know- Why- … it ti- it ti- it ties back, when you talk about order, right?

Yeah.

So, uh, and this, people get, people, I, I think quite often miss this because we're so concerned about morality.

And I'm not saying morality is something you shouldn't be concerned about, but the, the Hebrew word tov, which is used when the Lord said, "And he saw that it was good," in creation, that doesn't mean moral.

Right.

It means ordered.

It means working.

It means everything's functioning as it should be, right?

Right.

The con- the concept of good is, is working as it was designed to do by the Creator, right?

Right.

The, the engine is not spitting out oil and, you know, pistons and random other parts, right?

100%, and I, I think that's, it's one of the things that I, I've had when people have asked me about, well, okay, you know, how do, how should I think about God's calling, God's will?

I said, "Well, look, God's got a will for your life, but do you think you have a responsibility to how you interact with the rest of creation?" Right.

Or your household?

Or- Yeah … because actually, y- y- as well as a will for your life, you also have

to recognize the fact your, uh, the intent is that you aren't meant to disturb the order, right?

Right, right.

Right?

Uh- And, and- And that should influence, right, how you behave.

Yeah.

And, and in that light, would you, would you give, uh, would you give our audience a, uh, your, your perspective on, on covenant and how that fits in?

'Cause that seems to me, I, I think that would be a- Okay … an interesting progression.

That's not where I expected to go on this, but, but it, it just is, is, it's set up too well.

Well, a- as, as a, as a kind of, um, a- as … Oh, a- and I've just, I've just seen the … so the, the … in the chat from Aaron, the Parables of the Talents, 100%.

Yeah, yeah.

100%. And, and obviously the thing about the Parable of the Talents is the expectation that it's multiplicative.

Right.

Right?

And, uh, and I think a lot of people miss the, the point of the Parable of the Talents is that not only are you meant to use your talents, but you're meant to grow them fruitfully, right?

A- and, and the one important distinction I found people miss a lot, especially when it comes to wealth, and we can come back to this 'cause I do wanna get to your point about covenant.

Mm-hmm.

It is this, um, kingdom is required to be fruitful, charity is not.

Right.

Right?

And therefore the big distinction between a lot of what's kingdom i- is that it's not okay in kingdom to put money into charity and it to not be fruitful.

Right.

Right?

We are required biblically to chop the tree down.

Right.

Right?

Um, so covenant- That's the parable, the parable of the fig tree, right?

If it … Absolutely.

100%, yeah.

You have to chop down.

And we can, we … There's only so long you can keep on, you know, spreading the manure around that to get it to work.

But at some point it does actually have to be fruitful.

Um- Yeah … so I, I think that the, um … So I have a relatively unusual view of covenant, right?

I know you do.

The … And, and I'm not saying that everybody needs to, um, needs to buy into my version of covenant, but I see covenant as a technology that God gives us, right?

Right.

Um, in that I think God wants us in covenant with him, and actually I found that God's not really that concerned about what we covenant, he just wants us to covenant with him.

Mm-hmm.

Right?

Because covenant, covenant is for always and relational, right?

A- and, and the, the, the … So if you go to Deuteronomy 27:28, where the full covenant- Right

between God and Israel is laid out, that there are, there are a series of … Th- there are basically four distinct parts of covenant, right?

And I, I … Greg, I appreciate 'cause you sent me something where some people see this differently.

I, I, I found it helpful to look at four different parts of covenant, and I, I can, I can describe my experience of having done it and maybe that will or won't be helpful.

Yeah.

So the … Obviously part of covenanting is you're covenant … Both sides are covenanting to do something.

Right.

Right?

And, and I, I know that there are people who've covenanted in a whole bunch of different ways with the Lord, and he's cool with all of them, right?

So there's what are you covenanting to do?

There's what are the blessings in the event that the covenant is maintained?

Mm-hmm.

What are the curses in the event that the covenant is not maintained?

Mm-hmm.

Right?

Right.

And so when peo- O- often I, I, I find it a little kind of scurrilous when people talk about the angry, wrathful God in the, in the Old Testament.

Well, it's not really, it's just … It's what was committed in Deuteronomy 27:28.

It happened in the event- Yeah … the covenant wasn't held.

What do you do expect was gonna happen if you worship other gods?

Right.

I mean- Um, anyway, but the, but the biggest part of a covenant that often goes missed is the acceptance of the position you're being given.

Hmm.

Right?

So when you're covenanting with God, you're covenanting also into position.

So in the case of Israel, they was cho- they were coming into covenant as his chosen people.

Right.

Right?

Um, when, when God, um, covenanted with Abraham, Abraham was becoming the head of a nation.

Mm-hmm.

Right?

So when, so in Genesis 15 where, um, God says to Abraham, um, "You will be, um, your offspring will be as the stars in the sky," and they do the one-sided covenant with a burning fire pot, right?

Right.

Obviously the point of that is that, um, God's saying, "I'm gonna keep my side of the promise. You don't need to do anything other than believe." Mm-hmm.

Right?

But obviously the covenant widens as you go further down, and then obviously Jesus, Jesus talks about a new covenant, which obviously plays back to, you know, Jeremiah.

Um, so, so the, the… But the, the new covenant, it's hardly as if God's covenant didn't still stand, but Jesus is creating a new covenant.

So I'm… That's what I'm saying.

I think he, Jesus created a new tech- He used the same technology, but he evolved the covenant.

Right.

Right?

Right.

Which is great.

So I, I, I think it's there for us to use.

We can come into agreement with God- Right … um, for whatever it is we wanna suggest.

And my experience has been that, so I, I'm, I've covenanted with God in two different ways.

I, I won't necessarily go into them, but I, I was led into covenanting once and then doing another one, which has got to do with upholding, helping people uphold their covenants.

Mm-hmm.

If that makes sense.

Yeah.

Right?

Um- Ser- serving as a guarantor perhaps even, we might say.

Well, I, I certainly s- certainly as someone who can kind of help people hold it up, but yeah.

Right.

And, and so, and there, there are a lot of ministries where that ability to uphold something covenantally is really valuable.

Yes.

Especially for the purposes of protection, right?

So I, I, I think that there is a, um… I, I, I don't think… I won't say it doesn't matter, but I think that the, what you covenant is secondary to the fact that you're covenanting because it's inherently relational.

Yeah.

Right?

I, I, I remember- And it should be treated that way

I remember somebody, I remember somebody giving a, a, uh, a historical opinion on, on Constantine, and that basically, you know, Constantine
hires Eusebius who's a great historian of the church, and basically pays him to… Everyone at the time thought that this was pure propaganda.

Constantine had a political agenda.

He wanted kind of the Christian faith to, to bless it.

So Eusebius lays out this covenant between Constantine and, uh, and, uh, and God.

And then, you know, 80 years later when Constantine's descendants break the covenant, then all sorts of weird things.

There's a year where a, a volcano blows up and a third- Yeah

of the skies go dark, and various rivers in Europe freeze- Yeah … and a huge amount of barbarians flood into the empire and, and the hi- historians, you know, Con- the, he was, he was a, you know, biblical historian.

He goes, "You know, I, I don't think anybody was more surprised than the Romans when it, when it turns out God had actually thought that was a real working covenant," um- Well, and-

after all.

I, I, 100%.

I mean, and, and, and let, and let's be honest, it's, it's not the only example of that kind of stuff happening, right?

Oh, for sure.

For sure.

The, the idea that I made a covenant and, and God saw it as binding.

Who knew?

Amazing.

Amazing how that works.

Right?

And, and that for as long as the covenant was upheld- Right

um, God upheld the blessing Right.

And, and I, and I do think that there is a lot to be said.

I mean, I think in this day and age, particularly as, as we become more separated from the land, I think covenant is a really, really helpful way of protecting your family.

Mm-hmm.

I certainly use it that way.

Mm-hmm.

For sure.

Um, and I've seen, I've seen a lot of, um, a lot of ministries, a lot of businesses actually, um, where they're run by godly people, um, uh, they can be improved a lot by covenanting the business to God.

Right.

Right?

And I appreciate that's head- heads towards the sort of weird area.

You know, k- that's a, it's a little out there, but, um, I, I certainly

I, I don't know why any ministry wouldn't use the covenant technology.

And I think it's like God gives us all, all these things for our good.

Right.

They're meant to be helpful, right?

Yeah.

The Bible is meant to be helpful, right?

It's not there as a series of kind of finger-wagging rules.

Yeah.

A- anyone who thinks that the, the Bible is intended to be a bunch of finger-wagging rules should read Psalm 1, right?

Mm-hmm.

Where it says, um, the, um, uh, the, the … talks about the, um, "Blessed is he who dwells on the law of the Lord," or meditates- Right … on the Lord, or wrestles with the law of the Lord.

Right.

Right?

And meditate, wrestles with it day and night, right?

Well, if they were just rules to be followed, um, why would you need to meditate on them?

Mm. Yeah.

Just follow them, or wrestle with them.

Right.

Contend with them, you know, growl over them, which is what the Hebrew word means.

So the, there's, uh, there's a lot of this which is sort of … It's intended to be … It's all intended to be helpful.

Covenanting is meant to be helpful.

The instruction, the Torah, is meant to be helpful.

It's there for our good, right?

Right.

And, and I, I think in some ways what God does, he describes the order, that if we can just, you know, with the help of the Holy Spirit, implement it- Right … oddly enough, it tends to work really well.

Who knew?

Yeah.

Well, and I mean, kind of in, in, in that, in that light I have two thoughts, and again, you can take, you can always, as always respond to either, either of my thoughts or the thought that I should've expressed, um, in your discretion.

But, um, but basically, you know, the, the, the two things I think about there, number one is if, if what we're experiencing is a, is a, just a lack of blessing, a lack of output, where just things aren't coming together, maybe the solution is covenant.

And number two, I, I, like, one of the things is how, how does these, how do these thoughts, how do these principles interact with

So we've talked about, you know, being somebody who's an employee.

We've talked about being a leader.

What … Talk about the relationship with capital, 'cause one of the things about you that I think is, is super helpful and, and, and
I'd really love to see you have a wider platform on this is you have some thoughts on how c- people ought to connect with capital.

Um, and that, that basically I think it … What, what I gather from you is that most, most of our people, however we would, however that, that
shakes out, are not comporting themselves in a way that makes what they're trying to do accessible and, and reasonable for capital to engage with.

Which is a shame, because if, if we are doing the covenant thing, if we are building valuable things, then there is a, there is a place, um…

And boy, you know, we, it could go a lot faster if we could connect- Yeah … with the right types of capital.

So- Yeah.

Boy, that's a, that's a, that's a… So that's a big question.

D- d- tell me, tell… Sorry, remind me of the… Uh, so I've got capital in my brain.

Remind me of the first question first.

So the, the, the first one was, so, you know, the, just to kind of summarize what you just said, um, was if, if the problem is, hey, we just have a lack of output, right?

Things are not happening- Yeah, yeah.

Okay … right?

It's kind of a solution to that.

Then, then maybe the answer is, is, is to, to covenant.

Okay.

So, so, uh, let me, um… So the answer certainly can be to covenant.

Sure.

Right?

Um, uh, but I would say don't covenant until you're clean first

That's a good point And, and so I would say I, I see the, um

I, I may have s- I think I probably sent you my, the thing I wrote on this, um, the eight things I see over and over again- Mm-hmm … um, in businesses that are
just cause them to have problems, that they're basically- Yeah, if, if, if you're, if, if you'd be willing, I'll, I'll be happy to put that in the show notes.

Yeah.

That'd be great.

Yeah, absolutely.

Um, I would say I see the same two over and over again.

So for example, um, uh, in fact I'll, I'm gonna add a third to that, which isn't in the paper, but it's, um, uh, it won't surprise you given what we've already said.

So i- if, if you said, um, "I've got a business now, uh, it's, it seems to be failing, it's struggling," whatever else it might be, um, "Will you come in and give me a view?"

I'm going in looking for three things.

Wonderful.

And I, and I wouldn't normally say this, but you know, assuming we're all friends, I'm gonna say it here.

Um, I, I'm looking for the, uh … One we've already talked about is, uh, and, and- Well, I will, I will hope to make this public at some point, so, you know.

Yeah.

Um, yeah.

And, and I see the, um, uh, obedience first, get clean, yeah.

Um, the, the … So there, there are two places, three places where getting clean is a big deal.

So I, I was asked not that long ago by a, a, um, a couple of guys I know quite well, um, whether I'd help out with this particular business that's really struggling, and they're doing some strategic work, et cetera, et cetera.

And I said, "The only, the only way I'm gonna do this is I wanna talk to him about his marriage first." Right?

Because I know it's a problem.

Mm-hmm.

I've met him.

I know he's … I, I know it's a problem, and, um, he … A- a- and the, the effect of, uh, not having your marriage in the right place bleed into the organization in a way I've seen over and over and over again.

And it is no accident that, um, a- and the, that, um … I would say especially in ministries but also in businesses, there is often a really, really good marriage at the heart of the ones that's successful.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Like, it's really common.

So I, I … The first thing I'm gonna look at is, I, I wanna look at the state of the marriage.

Um, but the other two, and I see this over and over again.

I, I've, I've had to advise people in the past not to engage in new business deals because this was present.

So there are two things, and they're both biblical, right?

The Lord hates unequal measures.

Mm-hmm.

Right?

Just obviously straight from Proverbs.

So if there is some kind of unfair deal at the heart of the business, it is very unlikely it's gonna get blessed Right?

So this is part of a cleanup, in my view, right?

Right.

That could be at shareholder level, it could just be inhe- and I've seen this before, just inherent unfairness at a shareholder level.

Could be in a contract, it could be in the way in which employees are treated.

But if you've got some kind of inherent, uh, unfairness, uh, in the heart of the organization, that does need to be cleaned up.

Right.

Right?

For sure.

And, and the second thing, and this is, like, super common in, in the cleanup I've, I've devised on, is being bound to a fool.

Hmm.

Right?

Again, not … More proverbs, but, um, being bound to a fool, it, it's, it's incredible how often, um, there is a disruptive individual or shareholder or whatever
that is just causing trouble Um, and, and it could very well be that they brought their debt with them, or they've forced the company to take on a debt that's, that

It might be the debt provider is themselves a fool that is disruptive for the business, and, and the only solution is they … I mean, I, I've had to do this in one of the businesses we're involved in.

We had a couple of partners where I put in this category, and I said to the CEO, I, I'm currently the chairman, said to the CEO, "They have to go."

Mm-hmm.

"We can't put any more money into this," right?

Right.

"Until these individuals have gone." Now, we got rid of them and, and I, I tell you, from almost from the point at which they left- Mm-hmm … the Lord blessed it, and it's now crushing it.

Right.

Right?

It … I mean, it's astonishing how, um, how quickly it transformed as a result of these people, uh, these people being out of the organization.

Now, I, I mean ob- clearly others who are not necessarily as faith-minded would say, "Well, you know, it's just one of those things. Economically it was the time," et cetera, et cetera.

I- I've just seen it too many times.

Yeah.

That … So I would say there are nu- there are a number of areas where I'd say it's, it's, it, it's worth cleaning up first, and then you covenant it.

Yeah.

Right?

Yeah.

And, and so I, I think it's, it's always … It … And I would generally say to people, um, if you, if you've … Uh, uh, and I used to talk about this a lot more than I
have done recently just by virtue of the fact that I, I've not had to, but, uh, Lord led me through this thing around … Uh, uh, if, if you imagine, if you imagine this.

Um, imagine you, you're an employee, you've got a boss, um, you're running a division within an overall organization.

You wanna do something.

Well, what do you do?

You take a plan, a plan to your boss and you ask for approval.

Okay?

Right.

Um, and, uh, and, uh, it occurred to me a little while ago, I don't see why I can't do that with God.

Mm. With, uh, with the, the … any business I'm involved in, I'm gonna go along with a plan.

It'll be my best work, right?

I'm gonna ask him for his resources.

And, and one of the things I, I, I used to say to people, I said, "Look, i- if, um … There are lots of things we aren't able to do as Christians
because we're sort of, you know, uh, we- we're prevented biblically from doing it, but we do have this one unbelievable competitive advantage, right?"

Um, a- and so if, if you could use your father's resources, which are both unlimited and free in the running of your company- Right?

Wouldn't that be a good thing?

Yes.

Right?

Yeah.

He's not gonna charge you for them, so they're not running through your P&L, and they are unlimited.

Right.

So i- if you wanted, if you wanted your father's resources, um, uh, what might, what might, what might, um, allow you to use them?

Well, I think you've got to be specific, I think you've got to be biblical- Mm-hmm … and you've got to bless others, right?

Mm-hmm.

But I think if you, if you do that, then actually I would, I would encourage anyone, and I, I say having done this, I, I'd encourage anyone to go, to go to the Father and say, "Lord, I wanna do this with my business."

Mm-hmm.

Um, uh, uh, will you back me, please?

Yeah.

And I, I, I see no problem saying, "Look, there's some things I, I, I, I… Like, I know I need to solve. I've got no plan." Right.

It's, um, because I don't know how to do it, I'm gonna need your help, and only you can do it.

And, you know, so please help me out here.

Right.

And- Well, and, and, and my observation would be a lot of times that, that, that help when you ask for a plan, plans seem to come as people, right?

Yes.

Some- someone will come- Yeah … into your life- Totally … to, to teach you a lesson.

Um- Right.

And, and, or to say, "Actually, I've been through this before. This is what you do." Great.

Right.

Fantastic.

Right.

Right?

So, uh, so I think that there's… Uh, to answer your question, I think covenants are great.

Uh, co- but I see covenants

a little bit like, it's like closing all the doors of the stronghold.

Mm-hmm.

But the stronghold needs to be clean first.

Gotcha.

Right.

But I think- Yeah.

You close- I think any organization, like you, you create a stronghold biblically- Yeah, yeah … and you reinforce it with a covenant.

It's great.

Yeah.

Right?

So- Now, now what, what do you do when one of those people that you were covenanted with starts looking like a fool?

'Cause that's, I think, the, the… That's the, the, the next question that I think many people would have.

Okay.

So, so I, I would say, so, um, so can we look at that in a different way?

So, so I'm… Are, are you covenanted with that person before God?

Mm. So is it a tri-party covenant?

Right.

Right?

So, so let's say, l- l- let's say- Which would mean that

it has to be an, a godly thing and they have to agree to it, yes?

Yes.

Right.

I, I would say it's not a covenant unless God's in it.

Right.

Right?

So, so I would say, you know, our, our marriages are between three people, aren't they?

Mm-hmm.

Like, they're us and our wives and with God.

God is at the heart of the covenant.

Mm-hmm.

Right?

So we use it… Uh, put another way, we're using his technology to effect a covenant, right?

Right.

So I would say that, that an agreement with someone isn't necessarily a covenant, right?

Uh, so I, I would … So let's say it's you and I, just for the sake of argument.

Mm-hmm.

Right?

So we- Sure … we're in a business- I'll, I'll take the role of the fool in this.

I was g- Well, I was gonna suggest I would, but - Very good … right.

But, but in this, in this particular example, um, I, I'm your fool.

Mm-hmm.

We're covenanted before God and I've drifted from the covenant, so I've broken covenant.

Right.

Yeah.

Right?

Okay, so I'm an- A, I'm answerable to God for that.

Right.

But you can't let me pollute your covenant.

Right.

Your responsibility.

'Cause you're still responsible for your covenant, right?

Right.

So if I'm, if I'm polluting your covenant, you, you kinda do need to cut me off Right?

Right.

As painful as that may be.

So there needs to be some kind of disengagement plan.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, and, and it'll be prayerful and y- maybe you need the Lord's help to work out how to do that, but I, I don't think, I, I, I don't think that, um, you want to be trying to water down a covenant to accommodate someone just to bring them back.

I think the covenant- Right … needs to be clear.

And, and, and- Right … I would be, I, I… 'Cause I'm clear-

Well, and- I'm not, I'm not a mercy, right?

So I- Well, a, a lot of this comes back to having in- insisting on biblical categories, right?

Yes.

One of the classic ways that I see this is, well, you can keep this marriage going if you agree to behave not like a man, or at least not like a man 90% of the time.

And I'm like, you know, "Friend, you, you can't, you can't promise that to her," right?

Yeah.

Like, if she wants you to behave not according to the role and category that God has assigned you in this relationship, that is a breach of the covenant.

And, and, and, and then, you know, you know, obviously we always, we… I overuse the marriage covenant as an example of all other covenants, 'cause it's, it's, it's the only one we have left, right?

Mm-hmm.

But that applies to a whole bunch of relationships, right?

God has set out what are the roles in your family, and, you know, what does it mean to be a leader, what does it mean to be a follower of God, g- you know,
it… we- Yeah … not generally to God, but someone has set out the roles of what it means to be a CEO and what it means to be an employee in your companies.

You can't agree not to be a CEO to keep someone from leaving your business.

That doesn't work.

Well, 100%.

And, and I think also that there are, um, you know, we are required, Romans talks about it pretty clearly, that, you know, we are required to observe authority.

Sure.

Right?

Right.

And, and all, all authority is from God, right?

Right.

And y- you know, the, um, and, and the point, actually the point's just been made, you know, it does apply to being a parent.

You, you're abdicating the instruction and correction of a child.

100%. Yeah.

And, and, and I- That, that would actually be you breaking the covenant.

Yes.

Not just them.

100%. 100%. So I, I think that there is a, um, uh

The thing I, I find with covenants, and it's, uh, and it, it influences … So when you … So if you and I were to go into business together, right?

Mm-hmm.

Right.

I, I'm, I'm okay to do that, I'm cool to do that because- Right … I believe that we'll both keep the covenant.

Right.

But more, uh, a- almost as importantly, if you don't keep the covenant, I have no problem confronting you 'cause I know you agreed with it.

Right.

Right?

Right.

And I think that the willingness to confront before God is critical to the covenant.

And- Right.

To everyone else- Yeah … in the audience, if you can't do that, if you don't have a clear articulated covenant that you could enforce on someone, you say to me,
"Well, I just don't know what that covenant would be," then that's probably really good ev- evidence that you don't actually have a covenant with this person, right?

Yeah.

Um, there's some … There, there, there's been some breakdown here.

Well, I- So anyway, I, I wanna be respectful of your time.

I know that, that, that, that, you know- Oh, yeah … um, we, we talked about 60 minutes.

We don't really go for 90, so- Mm-hmm … you know, feel free.

Um, a- if anybody has questions, put them in the Q&A, um, and, uh, and I will try to get to them.

Uh, but, but I really would love … Yeah, just kind of frame it up for you.

Let's say there's, uh, at least three people- Yeah … in, in the chat that have, uh, i- on, on today, that have purchased a business in the last two years.

You know, they do i- acquisition entrepreneurship.

So I'd love to get your thoughts.

You know, you and I have talked a lot about that, about how

what, what should somebody … how, how should somebody in that position who's acquired or about to acquire or, or is in that vein, how do you … h- how should they move forward and integrate these principles?

And again, any thoughts you have on how to, how to connect this stuff with capital, I'd love, I'd love for you to say that.

Okay.

So, so, so I, um, I, I think the capital thing is actually really easy, right?

Um- For you.

As, as I, as I'll know.

Okay.

Sorry.

Yes.

Fair enough.

Um, the, the … uh, but I, but I think it does come back to the, some of the, the Romans 12 stuff, right, around- Right … different giftings.

Mm-hmm.

Um, uh, and, uh, and, and some ways, you know, w- we, as a Christian community, we're, we're often not that good at behaving like a community.

Right?

Yes.

Uh, and, and so for example, one, one of the thing… I, I, I have this thing at the moment, and sorry this is an aside, but I, I'll, I will answer the question.

Uh, where I think I've come to the conclusion it's very hard to work with people who aren't committed to doing the will of God.

So when I, when I'll ask people, I'll say, "Look, uh, uh, you know, are you committed to doing the will of God?"

And you either get absolutely, "Yes, it's central to everything I do," or you get sort of, "Well, I think so." Yeah.

Okay, that's a no.

Right.

Right?

Um, because actually if you don't have that commitment, it kind of all rolls over and it's, it's a fundamental issue.

I, I think that the, the, the way the body moves forward is a, a group of people who are committed to doing the will of God- Right

as a Christian community that are gifted in a bunch of different ways, work together to do that.

Right.

Right?

Right.

And, and we allow people who are gifted to do the thing they're gifted to do, right?

So I would say one of the things… one of the places that shows up a lot, way more than it should do, is pe- is people with resources who are giving to ministers and then determining what they all do.

Mm-hmm.

Right?

Right.

Um, uh, a- and, a- and so I, I think the whole kind of leaning in- Mm-hmm … um, the leaning into, um- To, to, uh, uh, all of that becomes kind of central.

Yeah.

Um, so I'm just … I'm, I'm trying to lead back to the, the, the other part of the question.

So the, the, the people that bought a company, what should they be thinking about?

Um, uh, e- I've just seen Ecclesias come up.

That's a, that's a really good point.

Um, maybe we'll get to that in a second.

The, um … So investing in a company, I, I would say companies … A- a- and this is, this is pretty simple.

So I think if you bought a company, this is what I would do.

Mm-hmm.

And, and maybe this will help, maybe it won't.

I, I would make sure it's clean.

Right.

Um, I would, I would ask for it to be covenanted before God, and I would spend my, my time thereafter focused on making sure that the people the Lord has brought us in the business are flourishing in their gifting.

I do not think there is anything, anything more kingdom that you can do than have people flourish in their gifting.

Sure.

And if that means that they, they … And I, I've done this before as well.

So if that means that you have a really entrepreneurial person in this particular business who wants to go and start their own thing, you help them.

Hmm.

Right?

Right.

If they need to, if they need to disperse, there's no reason we can't help them, and that can be done absolutely economically, then it's, it, it's, it's all good.

Mm-hmm.

Um, so I, I think, uh, for me in investing in a business, that's kind of where I would, um, I would start.

Yeah.

Um, whether that fits with what other people are saying, I don't know.

Sure.

I, I can see that there's tons of questions coming up though, aren't there?

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Well, I mean, a- again, you know, we, we, we, y- you're welcome to stay as long as you like.

So, um, Aaron says, "Expand on the fourth piece of covenant role acceptance. How does that play out in the market as opposed to marriage? What happens if
the, the times, the circumstances make people feel like they need to act in a manner that is outside of or in conflict with the originally established roles?"

Okay.

Well, so, so could … Can I, can I use the one, um- Uh, so I, I, the, when I was covenanting, the thing I found hardest, uh, and I think this comes from, y- you know, when you attempt to be humble as someone who's led by faith.

I know this may not necessarily be the answer you're looking for, but it's what I meant.

Um, is that, um, if you're, if you're accepting being a son of God or a child of God, what comes with that?

I found it very hard to accept that.

Uh, not, not intellectually, but emotionally the idea that you become, you know, you might covenant as a son of God, I found that really tough.

It felt very un-humble.

Right.

Right?

Right.

But, but nonetheless, it's what… You know, there are responsibilities that come with that.

Yeah.

A- and, and we're, so we're offered that kind of r- a- a- al- almost a, like a role that is, um, i- is, uh, is u- unusually significant.

Right?

Yeah.

A- and I would go, I think, I think there are other things.

So for example, within the church, we, you know, we're, we're… There are, there are five roles.

People do get anointed for roles.

You can be anointed as a prophet, right?

Right.

Okay, then you'll, you know, if you're, if you're, if you're going to be today's version of, um, Isaiah or Ezekiel or… I mean, that's
a, a, I think they do exist, and that's a pretty significant role and, and, and it, it involves you accepting the position of prophet.

Right.

Right?

Right.

Or teacher or- Well, I think, I think a, a point that I would acknowledge is mo- if we encountered someone or, or we, if, if, if we had a role that was
presented to us that was very significant- Yeah … the thing we would be afraid of would be people using the weapons of the egalitarian left against us.

Yes.

And at some point we have to get past that.

We have to get to the point where we say, "If I believe these things- Yeah … and, and I have received these things as true, if there's…" And I'm preaching to myself here, everybody, as, as many of you on the call know, right?

If we believe these things, then we have to accept that it's…

And, and, you know, there's a, there's a book, uh, uh, called Proof is Moral Obligation that, that talks about the scripture where it says, you know, "Speak, speak as though, you know, you're speaking the
oracles of God." And he, he makes the point of you're commanded… Like, you're, you're a fallible person whenever you're speaking, but you're commanded to speak as though you're speaking the oracles of God.

So it's not, it's not humility to downplay what you're, what you're doing.

It is in fact arrogance to say, "Well, actually, I know better." Um, I, you know, I actually know better than, than, you know- Yeah … various things.

Um, very good.

So, uh, Joshua- So did, did, did I answer your question?

Because y- you a- I think you might have asked me a multi-facet- faceted question, but I, I may have, I may have missed something.

So I answered the one about investing in the c- oh, connecting with capital.

Yeah, connecting with capital.

For sure.

Right.

So, so the, the…

Uh, so let me answer this in two ways.

So my own experience has been that, um, I, I think that there are … When people struggle to find capital, and this isn't necessarily true for, true in all circumstances, but I've seen plenty where some of it is presenting what it is.

So how, how the operator presents the business isn't necessarily how an investor wants to see it.

Right.

Right?

Right.

Investors are simple people, and sometimes getting some help to work out how to present what this thing is and why it's good, um, could be the difference between getting capital and not.

Right.

So and that was my point about, you know, we've got different roles in the kingdom- Right … getting help from someone who knows how to do that, and there are plenty of people out there that can do that.

Um, to, to make this thing, um, uh, interesting to an investor.

Uh, investors are super simple people, and I speak as one of them.

You, you look at it as kind of where does your revenue come from, why are you any good, and how do you make profit out of it, and how does it grow?

Right.

Right?

Right.

And so they, they're looking at it as a machine, and sometimes for owner-operators that can be, that can be a little demeaning.

So we'll- Right

it's much … I, I, I know, I know to you the business is much more important than that, and you do a lot, a lot of cool things that are, are really valuable.

Right.

But the investor, the investor who's deploying the money is looking at this as a, as a kind of like a cash machine.

How does it produce cash?

Right.

Right?

Or build value or whatever.

And I think one of the, one of the things that I, I, I love, you gave me a s- definition of smart capital c- some months ago, that basically smart capital is the capital that wants to invest in something that's gonna keep producing money for a long time.

Yes.

Right?

It's not, it's not looking for a short term

Like, I think a lot of time one of the, one of the … When we say capital, people connecting with capital, many of the people on this call will have had the experience of trying to connect with somebody who, who was short cap- short-term capital.

They wanted a quick turnaround, a, a relatively high profit- Mm-hmm

and then to be out in a transactional way, right?

Not somebody who, who … Not an investor who's like, "Hey, I, I … What I want you to promise me," and the, and, and as you said, the investors are simple creatures.

They don't want to know how you're gonna accomplish this necessarily- Yeah … unless they ask.

But they, they, what they want you to promise is, "And there will be this cashflow, you know, for, for a very, very long time."

Which I think, you know, when we talk about optimizes, taking the business, it's a claim on human activity, optimizing the human activity within the structure, leading it well.

That's a claim that our people can make better, I would hope, than, than, uh, than your average bear, right?

Yeah, 100.

Well, and I think the thing is i- if, if people really believed that, um, the people of God were gonna get blessed- Mm-hmm

which obviously Israel was in the Bible- Right … um, certainly for long periods of time, you know, they, they … Y- you get unusually blessed.

Why wouldn't you want to be a shareholder in that?

Right.

Right?

It sort of stands to reason, doesn't it?

Y- and, and I think so- some of that is just, you know, you present it in a way you know you're gonna outperform it, right?

Right.

Um, and then you reinvest in more of the same.

Mm. Right?

A- and the thing is, like, uh, uh, and quite often I think that, um, people will make, um … People will make kind of this distinction between ministry doing good things
and business that's something else, whereas in actual fact it is an economic consequence of Romans 12 in specialization that profit exists, therefore business exists, right?

Right.

The, the economic theory is called Ricardo's Theory of Relative Specialization, for, for those that are interested enough to look it up.

Um, but the basic idea is that you do the thing you're best at and, and when we all do that, profit emerges.

Yeah.

Right?

It's a, it's a God-designed system.

It's called operating surplus, and operating surplus is what pays for ministry.

Right.

And, and part of the challenge is, uh, uh, in a lot of cases these things have, have become divided.

Mm. Um, I, I, I do think that there is a role, um, for Kingdom Capital to get a lot smarter about how it puts money into kingdom-related businesses.

Sure.

And, uh, and that's probably a … That's a whole other session of itself, but I think that's where the investment company idea comes in.

You know- Mm-hmm … it's, it's, it's a funny thing.

One of the reasons why people want, um, exits is, um, uh, companies often don't move quickly enough to share the cash back with shareholders.

Mm. Right?

Right.

Right.

Just for, for what it's worth, the, the, um … So if you, if you look at the studies historically, um, companies that pay out cash back to shareholders tend on average to be more disciplined than those that don't.

Right.

Right?

Sort of, sort of like the, the, the tithing examples in people's personal lives.

Right.

People who tithe are way more disciplined.

Yes, 100%.

And, and, and therefore … And it forces you … If you know you gotta pay a bunch of your money out, it forces you to be more careful of
what you keep within, and therefore you become more judicious about what projects you invest in and how you fund it, et cetera, et cetera.

So I, I, I, I have thought for a long ti- … And I've actually seen this in a business I've been involved in in the past- Right … where if you create a
holding company and you pay a decent dividend out that holding company to shareholders- Mm-hmm … um, and you also offer an internal market in the shares, right?

Right.

So you allow the, the, the … And this is a private company.

You allow the cash to basically buy back shares from investors, who are often employees, right?

If you pay a dividend to the people, they generally don't sell their shares internally.

Yeah.

Right?

Yeah.

If you never … If you don't pay a dividend, generally people will try and sell all of their shares.

Right?

And so the, the, um- 'Cause, 'cause how else can they get access to li- I mean, that's the liquidity, right?

Absolutely.

You, you pay- Is it, so- You pay people out the equivalent of what's a little bit like receiving a pension.

You pay an income out.

Mm-hmm.

So I saw the question dividends.

So, um, if a, if a company's got a, um, a, a 100 shares and it makes 100 of profit, um, a- and it pays that out to shareholders, you basically pay $1 per share.

Right.

And that's a, that's a, that's a dividend.

Um, if you look at a company's financials, it would, it would look at dividend.

Dividends per share is a, a number you'll see in their financials.

Generally, companies don't pay out all of their- All of their profits as dividends, but originally that was kind of the intention, right?

You- I mean, m- many of their com- many companies these days don't pay out any.

And, and, and I think that's, you know, that, that's one of the interesting things about what you're saying about h- paying dividends and
paying dividends early, paying, you know, I mean- Yeah … even if it's not like a C-corp structure, paying some kind of return on investor.

You know, one of the, one of the things is I, I, you know, and I, I've seen this now that I think about it.

I see a lot of circumstances where the, uh, the, the CEO, the, the guy that was running the company, he, he wanted the, the investor to come in and just basically give him money, and the investor would get it back, you know, maybe someday, right?

Yeah.

Um, and, and having a plan of I will begin returning your money to you promptly, here is how I'm gonna accomplish that, um, that's a, that's a really good thing to have.

That's a really good thing to have.

Well, if we, if there was a kingdom investment company, and this is the, this is the thing that has, uh, has been on my mind for a little while.

If there was a kingdom investment company where a bunch of people with wealth, um, put a, put a bunch of money into, into a, um, a company, it funded investment in some businesses- Mm-hmm … those businesses produced cash, the cash comes out the top, right?

Then- And, and, and we would say businesses, part of the investment thesis of this company would be to follow in that, that- Yes

some kind of s- gifting related thing.

So we, we know someone who we, has demonstrated relative competence with this idea of people have giftings and we need to- Yes … tune their responsibilities to their giftings, has gone in and actually done that in each of these companies, hey?

Yes.

Well, a- and the beauty of this is that the technology is available, um, the legal technology is available to be able to, um, give people the ability to earn equity- Mm-hmm

earn shares in that company- Mm … um, based on how they, how they perform, right?

Right.

So, you know, if, if, if management and the people within the business… I mean, I, in the bo- in the business I originally took public, we used to do this every single year.

We would share, uh, we would share excess return in the- Mm

form of equity with the people.

Right.

Right?

And, um, a- and the, the, the, the basic idea is that, um… So I, I think that if there was such an investment company, people can earn wealth as employees and build it up through time, right?

Right.

And as their shares grow through the years, so, so do their dividends.

Right.

So they build up a new, a new source of income that they can then use to help other people.

It's, it's a natural way socially of being, of helping everybody.

Right.

So, so, so let me, let me just kind of give a little bit more background on this idea.

So the idea would be, let's say we have, we, and we have a number of people in the audience who a- who all have engaged in some form of acquisition entrepreneurship, and there's some other people that are just starting a business cold, God bless them.

Um, rather than those people going to trying to find individual investors- those, they, they would apply if we could form a, a, a kingdom investment company, right?

Um, and say, "Hey, we, we, we have an understanding of what we think makes for good, good companies, good structures, g- what's gonna create profit on, on the long term,
and we are looking for this type of return," then, then, then, then companies that had, that had met that requirement could apply to be invested in by that company- Yeah

instead of pitching to an individual investor and having to manage that, and you would have a professional management of, of the investment company, so, so
that again, the v- and I think when you were talking about there are people with gifts, right- Yeah … um, that, that are able to talk to, to, to capital.

That would be the place where those people live.

They're solving the problem of, hey, you've got the guy, the entrepreneurs that are building the businesses, and they need to follow certain rules in order to be qualified for the investment capital.

But having that type of a structure where we, we have a fund, right?

Uh- Yeah … at, at the top means we don't have to have…

E- each of the guys that's listening to this recording doesn't have to go and find one investor, convince them of, you know, several theoretical things about how life and business should go, right?

They can, they can interact.

We, we can, we can scale this thing.

And, and hopefully that would make things more efficient and, and it certainly would kind of de-risk what we're, what we're talking about.

And, and to kind of tie it back, having that investment company being around, not just for outside investors to invest in, not just for friends and
family of the entrepreneur, but for the entrepreneur and their employees to invest in, that's a way of going- 100% … along on your community, right?

You- we've created a structure where there is a thing that you can put money into that gr- gives liquidity and, and, and to people that you like, right?

Yep.

And then if it pays off, which is to say if, if the people in your community that are, that are behaving themselves the way you believe the God of the universe requires them to behave and will bless them for behaving in that way, then you get profit, right?

You own a piece of paper- Right … that says you get that.

And, and so- Well, and- … that, that's just a s- uh, uh, an idea that I wanna, I wanna drive home.

This is what we're talking about.

Well, and, and, and also, you know, for people that, people that have made money and have a donor-advised fund- I- if you were, if you were gonna give, for example, half a million to some particular cause, why not put it into this?

Right.

'Cause it's a- Right … perpetual gift, right?

A- and I mean, you know, depending on the, the, the structure and how, how that investment company was doing, m- I think many of these funds would qualify as impact investment for like a Of course.

Yeah … tax structure For sure.

Right?

Yeah.

Um, so- Yeah, no, of- 'Cause you have people that are

They're, they're behaving w- they're treating people, they're investing, and this is what the capital is gonna be for, right?

We need capital 'cause we are treating people a little bit different than the standard, you know, retail employer does, right?

Yeah.

Um, and, and, and we are all agreeing that we believe that doing this process with people will give us more long-term returns.

Um, but yeah, we, we, we, we need a little bit more upfront to, to, to acquire the people that can, uh, that can make this work.

Well, and, and, but I, I, but I think also it … So i- imagine we've been doing this for five years, right?

Mm-hmm.

The, the investment company had been running for five years.

It's diversified a- and it's now producing a dividend that's 4 to 5% of the capital value a year.

Right Completely different proposition now when you're raising capital.

Right.

Right.

'Cause someone comes along and you're saying, "Well, we're paying out a dividend." So you, you, you can buy this thing- Right … at whatever the net asset value is.

It's growing at, call it 15, 20% a year, of which five of it is being delivered in dividend.

Right.

So the returns are great.

Right.

Right?

But the, you know, what's the worst case?

You're gonna get paid dividends back.

So this isn't, this isn't kind of- Right … we're not asking you to put money into something that's in the never never land.

This is a genuine company run on kingdom principles that's got a bunch of underlying businesses.

And what it does offer, what it, what it ought to offer, is the ability for, um, people that, that are … They've been running a company for a long time, you know, a little bit like
Berkshire Hathaway has been for a lot of companies, where they- Right … they've been the place that a family has ultimately sold their business so that it wouldn't be split apart.

Right.

Right?

I can, I can, I can roll my business into this thing because I trust it.

It's run … It's gonna be run in the same way it's always been run.

Right.

On the kingdom principles I've even developed, there's, there's a, you know, there, there's a nice consistency between those things, and it's, yeah, it, it's a, it's a natural landing place for some of these businesses once it's big enough, right?

Right.

Well, and, and, you know, the idea that if, if instead- Mm … of an individual company offering its own ESOP, wouldn't it be wildly more valuable, wildly more
attractive to be able to say to their employees, "Hey, we can, we can offer you shares in the holding company," right, "in the, in the investment company"?

Yeah.

Um, that- Yeah, and- That just seems like it would be a very profound benefit.

Yeah.

A- a- and, and there's a, and there's a, a- an internal market in the shares as well as dividends.

That means that people have to sell.

Right.

It's great.

And so they can build up wealth in that way.

So I, I, I, I think I, I saw one of the questions was, you know, why isn't a kingdom investment company being done?

That's a really interesting question, right?

And so one of the, one of … I, I, I've been involved in businesses that have tried to raise money from, um, Christian foundations, right?

Um, a- and a- as a general rule in my industry, Christian foundations don't have a great reputation.

Um, but- With, with fairly good reason, I'll, I'll add.

Okay.

I, yeah, and, and, uh, the, the … Well, you, I'm, I'm sure you can go into more detail than I, I'd probably be prepared to.

The, um … But I think quite a lot of what I've seen is, is the, the focus is, uh, is, is on the investment into like, a- as you said, Greg, kind of impact.

Mm-hmm.

I'm putting money into a, what I think is a good societal activity, as opposed to kingdom, which I think is about the people.

Yeah.

And having them flourish in their gifting, right?

So, uh, for me, the distinction between a, a kingdom investment company a- as, as I'm envisaging it and what, what is done elsewhere is I think it's less about the thing you're doing and more about the people you're doing it with.

Very good Right?

And I think in order to, in order to accept that, you've got to believe that it's the people's giftings that are more important than the activity itself.

And I've got no problem with, you know- Right … people saying, "Well, we should put many money into doing this particular thing 'cause it's a really good idea." I do some of
that myself, but, um, I, I, I, I still see the biggest issue as being there are people who are not flourishing their giftings because someone somewhere isn't taking it seriously.

Right.

Well, and, and you think about, you know, we have the kind of the technology thesis, right?

Everything in our world is a, is a, is some form of a technology thesis, right?

Yeah.

We've got this new technology, and that's going to allow us to overcome some barrier or accomplish something.

And what you're saying is that, hey, you know, I mean, technology is great, right?

We love it, but even if you… Even with the best technology in the world, if you've got the wrong people or the wrong kinds of people doing the wrong jobs in your company, y- it's not gonna work out, right?

It's not gonna work out.

Well, and, and, and people, people have… You know, we, we've, we have faced this problem before.

I mean, for- Mm-hmm … for those of you that, that are, are kind of, um uh, are, are sort of, um, concerned that, there's a lot of people talking
at the moment about, uh, you know, technology's gonna reduce the number of jobs that are needed, and it means we're gonna have massive unemployment.

I, I mean, that, that's not a historically consistent argument.

We've s- we've seen this in, like, within the last century, actually.

So, um, the, the reason we call it the Baby Boomer generation, it was so much larger than the previous generation, um, that there weren't enough jobs to go around.

So what happened?

They all start their own businesses, and we have the biggest explosion of economic activity we saw at, at any time in the 20th century, right?

Mm-hmm.

Those people start their own things, create enormous businesses, um, out of the back of it, and created employment for everybody else, which meant that our generation, Gen X, um, uh, had, had more jobs to fill than we had people in the generation, right?

And so we, we were considered to be work shy because, you know, we had the choice of jobs the generation before didn't previously.

So I, I don't really see any, any distinction.

Like, people are always gonna need things to do, and people are always gonna have new ideas.

There's always gonna be really cool things to do.

But I, I, I, I think ultimately the heart of it, we do need to take seriously the importance of raising up people in their gifting.

Mm-hmm.

And if we don't do that- Absolutely … it will be different.

Yeah.

Okay.

Well, I mean, I, I think the, the other thing that, that I would say on that is that, um, succession will, will, will need to be redone with a, with a great deal more intentionality than we've had for the, for the past little bit.

And I, so I think that's, uh, that's what's really gonna drive this.

Uh, there's, there's not… There's, there's… If you're, if you wanna have someone who takes over your business and carries it on, so, you know, I was talking to a g- a guy that was… He's, he's very
confident that he can take four or five attorneys and just absolutely disassemble three or four midsize firms with, you know, 50 to 100 attorneys with, with just five guys plus AI, plus a tech guy, right?

Right.

And, and I listened to his pitch, and it sounded incredibly, like… I thi- I think he'll do it.

Um- But what won't happen in that five guy, like, like the succession risk, right?

And not just- And the, uh- … the success risk of one of those five guys, um, you know, goes to, um, at some point in the future goes to, um, you know, retires or whatever.

What if one of them gets hit by a bus, right?

What if your workforce contracts by 20% in one, uh, you know, one bad slip and fall, right?

The, it's a- Yeah … it's a, it requires a very different way of thinking about, you know, m- I mean, a- and, and especially, you know, for the, for the capital thesis, right?

The, the biggest problem that guy is having right now, I think, is, is that he, as he's talking to investors, the idea of having, well, we've got
five guys, and if any of, if any of them depart or something happens to them, my, my business, my $30 to $50 million business just goes shunk.

That's very unsettling to, to, to investors.

Well, and, and the, and the other thing, so, so if, if that business was presented to me, I, I'm immediately a no, right?

Okay.

As an investor, right?

Right.

And, and the, the reason I'm a no is because i- it seems to devalue the, two things, the, the importance of the relationship itself with a client, right?

Mm-hmm.

And that's a big deal, right?

But it also devalues, um, what the consumption of legal services actually is, right?

So when I was CEO of a public company, um, I, I'm not really buying the legal services, I'm buying the individual who will say it Does that make sense?

That's fair.

Right?

So, you know, when we, when we take advi- you take advice as a public company, um, on some kind of, uh, often complicated legal issue, and I'm not saying AI can't work through that.

Although, actually, some of the things that we work through, I, I wouldn't, I wouldn't trust, I wouldn't trust any system to come up with, 'cause it needs to be debated, right?

Right.

But at, at the end of the day, you need, you need a partner at a firm that is considered to be credible to say, "I'm going to advise you this because…"

Right.

Right?

And that's pa- that's, that's a big part of what you're paying for.

It's not so much the substance, it's the, it's the willingness for another human to stand up and say, and write their, write their name- Right … at the bottom of the letter, right, that says, "This is what we're advising you for the following reasons."

And that's why the- Right … you know, as a public company, the scale of the company matters, that you're using, et cetera, et cetera.

That's why, where the, "didn't get shot for buying IBM" comes from, right?

That, th- there's more to it than just the service itself.

Mm-hmm.

So I would say as much as that may appear to be a good idea, it doesn't ring true for me.

Hmm.

Right?

Interesting.

A- and, a- and I'm not saying they're wrong.

Right.

I'm just saying that, that from a, from a business perspective, I'm gonna look at it through a different lens than just a functional one.

Right.

And- Well, I mean, I think, I think it's important to observe, like, that's changing the definition of what it means to have legal services.

Yes.

Right?

It's, it's changing the definition, and that's always, you know, there, there… perhaps there could be, you know, unforeseen consequences of that.

Um, well, I- I think that there was one more question that I, I just kinda wanted to get your, your thought on.

So, so somebody, uh, Josh, was asking, "If a covenant is a technology, what is your definition of a covenant?

Sounds like it's more than just a, quote, 'serious promise.'" Would you say just a little bit more about that?

Um, I, well, I, I, I think that is, it is a, um, I, I, I come back to the thing, what I said earlier on.

I, I see covenant as being something that is inherently relational Right?

So for example, you and, you and I can have an agreement to, to do a service that, and that agreement will persist for 10 years.

Right.

Doesn't require us to be relational.

Right.

Right?

Doesn't require us to have a, a, an intimate relationship in the sense that we know each other.

Um, I, I, I think the, the thing about a covenant is… A- and, you know, I think some of what happened to Israel is, is part of the… partly because they didn't see covenant as God did.

Right.

Right?

I think if, if Israel as a whole was, was, uh, intimately closer with God in a relational sense, then I doubt… I, I, I certainly hope they wouldn't have been off worshiping the Baals.

Mm. Right.

Like Ash was.

Right.

Right?

Yeah.

Well, I mean, yeah, when, by the time you're, you're, you're, you're that far down the road, something has gone wrong much earlier in the process.

Right.

Right?

Um- So, so if, so if, if we are, um, if you and I are in a business and we're covenanting before God, I think we're covenanting that we will be in relationship doing whatever it is we're gonna do, and we're gonna take that relationship seriously.

Japanese have an expression, I think, don't they?

They don't, don't let the tea go cold.

Right.

Right?

A- a- about relationships in that, look, we, we, we need to keep on warming the relationship, and so I, I see covenant as being…
it's, it's not… the, the, the agreement's part of it, but it's really an agreement that is grounded in a continuous relationship.

Mm-hmm.

Right?

And whether that's a continuous prayer relationship with God- Um, uh, and, uh, and a continuous relationship between those of us that co- that are covenanting.

So that, that's, that's how I, I … I mean, I see it as being something that's grounded in relationship, which is why I'm saying I,
I, I, I think God is more concerned about the relationship than what we're covenanting A- and a relationship that doesn't end, right?

Yes.

Like, like, the, the … Now, not that, not that it can't change, not that we can't… you know, we can, we can be in different, different
seasons of life and, you know, mean different things to each other, but the idea that hey, we're, we're, we're gonna go down the road doing this.

Um, you know, I think one of the, one of the things that I would say about a covenant is, is that w- it's al-

A covenant is recognizing, hey, this relationship includes something that God has an opinion on.

Yeah.

And so we're gonna say, I'm gonna say something and this other person is gonna say something, and then we're gonna get into it, and God is actually going to say, "Oh, by the way, there are actually extra provisions of this covenant that you didn't know about."

And you have to decide to live with that, right?

Yeah.

Like, that's kind of… Like, if, if covenant is a technology and there's a skill associated with using it, that's the skill of being in covenant.

Now, I, I think we could, uh, we could probably spare ourselves a lot of grief and surprises by reading the book that, uh, that He left us, 'cause there sure seems to be a lot of hints, right?

Every time I've had one of those things with people, that they're, they're just like, "Oh, my gosh, I had no idea that this was part of the package deal of me doing this
thing." And I'm like, "Well, let's go, let's go look at some scriptures that are, you know, 3,000 years old, give or take." And you know, He … It, it was in there.

It was in the book, right?

Um, so yeah, I think that's, that, that's good and important.

Um, Aaron.

Aaron, you have a, you have a question.

You have your hand up.

Well, when, when you guys were talking about that legal technology, um, just the thought occurred to me of Lincoln's quote, uh, that I've seen on many attorneys' walls of, "Time is an attorney's stock in trade."

And J- uh, um, our guest Mr. Faulkner's response seemed to be that really it's trust is more of an attorney's stock in trade, um, in terms of that multiplier effect with those five
people, 'cause it's, it's really do I trust this person to put their name at the bottom as opposed to just how much work can you get done for me, and if I can multiply my time you win.

Yeah.

Yeah, tr- tr- I mean, I, I, I think, a- and, a- Aaron, just to be, just to be clear, I'm, uh, I'm just expressing this as someone who's consumed it, right?

Um, so I, I, and… So my opinion on the, on the business idea would be based on if I imagine myself as a consumer of this, would I buy this as a CEO of a public company?

The answer is I wouldn't.

Um, I, I think credibility is a critical part.

Now, maybe in 20, 30 years' time where th- the, the, the environment has changed, but credibility matters a lot.

That, 'cause ultimately, um, my mindset if I'm consuming those services is if I, if this goes wrong and I have to defend it, is this guy gonna help me?

Right.

Right?

And in a public company when it goes wrong, it goes really wrong Right.

Well- Right?

… I mean, the question that I always have about stuff like that is h- how … One of the, the critical things is how do you expect to prevent
the clients from saying, "Well, if you can be … do this much assisted by AI, why can't I replace you with a better, with a better AI model?"

Now, uh, again, the, the, the … I'm, I'm leaving out some details, uh, but, but I, I, I think there's a, I think there's a very real
chance that compared to … The other thing is there's some dysfunction in the middle markets of, of, of law firms for, for various reasons.

Mm-hmm.

And so I, I suspect that, that, that my friend will be able to, uh, to, to prove out his, his thesis quite effectively.

But it will leave … It, you know, it does mean that what you're investing in, and one of the pieces of trust is will this entity be here in five, 10 years, right?

Will there still be a firm?

It is, you know, in, in, uh, in Gary North's conception of covenant he says the … H- he, he has f- his first four pieces are basically identical to yours, Mike.

And then the fifth piece that he adds is, and what's the succession plan?

H- how do we know this, this outfit's gonna be here long term, right?

Yeah.

Um, which is, which is an interesting, an interesting … I don't, I don't know, I don't know that that necessarily conflicts with what you had said before.

But, uh, so- No.

Well, I, so, so I, I would j- I would just put that, um, so I would put succession in the process of having people flourish in their giftings, right?

That's fair.

Right.

But, but I, but I also think that I, I'm not necessarily … So I'm not as wedded to the idea that a particular institution needs to, needs to continue- Mm

if it's constantly spawning off- Right … new cool businesses.

So if the, if, if it's a little bit like … I, and I, I … My, my analogy has always been, um, you know, i- if I was a disciple in
the early church, if I'd been a disciple of Jesus, like, um, if Jesus hadn't left, there's no way I was, I would've been dispersed.

Right.

Right?

He, he had to leave so that … So he had to disappear in order … 'Cause frankly if he, he'd stayed around and I was a disciple, I'd be saying, "Lord, I'm not, I'm not going. I'm staying here with you." Right?

So the, the, um- Right?

So it, so i- i- it, he goes, they all disperse and, and the, it's a successional model all the way through the Bible, isn't it?

All the way through.

Right.

And particularly the Book of Acts.

And in fact, um, the, the Letters to Timothy talk about this plenty as the, the process of appointing new elders, et cetera, et cetera.

So I, I, I'm not necessarily as wedded to the continuation of the institution.

Although generally I would … I, I have observed that I think if you can build in really good processes- Mm

that those processes can become long-lived and they can be effective for long periods of time.

Right.

Provided they're administered well.

But I think that, that as long as you're raising … As long as the focus is on people flourishing in their gifting, generally you have more succession choices- Um, than you would have otherwise, right?

Right.

Well, it's, it's- And succession is, succession's a tough thing to do, and it's very de- uh, depend … I mean, I, I've, I've literally just been through one on a ministry I'm involved in.

It's quite a large ministry for what it is.

Um, and we, we transitioned the leadership from father to son.

The father, sadly, actually passed away.

Mm. So it looked like a very godly, a very God-led succession process.

But those processes aren't trivial.

Often, especially if you're dealing with a transition from the founder, because, you know, often the founder isn't succeedable.

Right.

And, and part of the problem is that the, the boards are looking for a replacement for all the attributes of the founder, and it doesn't exist.

Right.

Right?

Right.

So you've got to come to terms with that.

Well, I, I think, I … Yeah, you definitely, you definitely have to have organizational flexibility when, when- Yeah … when incredibly… And this goes back to the giftings thing, right?

Like I, I say frequently, you know, if, if, if your father had five giftings, um, you know, ho- hopefully he had five children.

And, and, and in every case that I'm aware of, he had five kids, natural and spiritual, right?

When you added them all up together- Yeah … it was very clear.

Mm-hmm.

We had two kids, like, from his wife, and then he had three proteges.

And when you sort of list out the five things that this guy did, it's like, oh yeah, well, that person is that one, and that person is that one.

Occasionally you get someone who has two, right?

Uniquely gifted, right?

Special.

Um, but yeah, I think, I think the, the idea of, well, we want the… It's important that the faction endure.

It's important that the, that the lineage endure, right?

The spiritual lineage, as it were.

Yes.

Which is what is capable of offering the blessing to which you have been entrusted- Mm

to the world.

'Cause that's kind of at the core of all covenants is, hey, God is giving you a blessing.

It's your job to deliver that blessing to the world, and that's what you have to preserve.

That's, like, that's what's important, that it not pass away from the earth, right?

In, in, uh, um, my wife is fond of Korean dramas, and I, I, I've read a few Chinese web novels in my time, and one of the storylines that, that populates those, those Asian
works of fiction is, you know, the daughter of a, of a noble house that's fallen, and her purpose in life, she understands her goal is to recreate the sword style, right?

She doesn't want that sword style or that medicinal style or that, you know, some technique that her family was famous for, some craft technique.

She doesn't want that to pass away from the earth.

And so whenever she marries or whatever she does, her goal is to recreate a, a group of people that are capable of bringing that blessing that they're, they were entrusted with, uh, by God to, to the earth.

And so, well, I think that's a, that's a great place to kind of wind it up.

Mike, any, uh, any final comments for us?

No.

Thank you so much for being so generous with your time.

I really appreciate it.

Not at all.

No, no, I, I, I think, uh, we've covered a lot of ground.

Um, and if people have got burning questions, just shoot them through.

Wonderful.

Wonderful.

All right.

Well, everybody, this has been, uh, uh, an episode of The Great Houses Forum.

Thank you so much for, uh, for joining us.

Take care.