Great Houses

Gregory Treat: All right.

Hello, everybody.

Welcome to another episode of The
Great Houses Forum, uh, where we, we…

There's, there's two pieces, right?

One, one on The Great Houses Forum.

We always, we're talking about great
houses, what it takes to form them,

what it takes to defend them, what it
takes to build these, these wonderful

business-owning, family-holding,
uh, multi-generational institutions

that I think are really a better way
of, of, of organizing our society

or, or really potentially the only
way of organizing our society.

And so as we keep chopping them
down, as we keep chopping down the

pillars of our civilization, we
have just less and less pillars.

And so at a certain point
we have to figure out how do

we rebuild these marvelous
civilization-holding institutions.

And the other piece of what
we're doing is the forum.

So, uh, we wanna talk to people, to,
to guys that have thought deeply about

these topics and are building, you know,
the tools to, uh, to help us as we, as

we, as we build these marvelous things.

Um, so today we're gonna talk to Zach
Fava, uh, who is an entrepreneur.

He's a, he's an exit man.

Um, you know, there's three communities
that, that, that are closely related and,

and, uh, to this, this, uh, this podcast.

That's, uh, obviously the Exit Group.

Um, then there's, uh, Alex Petkas's the
Classical Society and Joshua Seach's

Radical Personal Finance, and then more
recently, the Natural Law Institute.

Uh, just very happy to have members
from all of those communities here.

And so, uh, you know, Zach started…
Uh, I think, I think the, the correct

way to pronounce it is Methian.

Is that, is that, is that the right
way to say it or did I… Methian?

Zack Fava: Uh, Methian, yeah.

like Pro- Pro- Promethean.

Gregory Treat: Promethean.

Very good.

Methian.

Well, well, I, I, I apologize.

I heard you say it and I was like,
"Okay, that's different than how

I've been reading it this whole
time," but so I, so I did my best.

Methian.

So he's here to talk about Methian, which
is, uh, his AI, uh, you know, h- home

educator, household educator startup.

Um, so thank you so much
for being here, Zach.

Uh, you know, tell, tell us a little
bit about yourself and, and, and

what, uh, brings you into our world.

Zack Fava: Yeah, thanks for having me.

Um, so I, I spent roughly 15 years working
for Department of Defense then, now

Department of War.

Gregory Treat: Okay.

Zack Fava: Um, in that time, I, I
kinda had a strong focus on systems

engineering, quality assurance, um,
at the weapons level, avionics level.

So I learned everything from
soldering on a bench all the way up

to running, you know, a, a department
of a couple thousand people.

So in that time, you know, I kinda
learned how architecture works, and not

architecture as in a physical piece,
but architecture anywhere, whether

it's people, software, whatever.

You know, You

gotta have the right
pieces in the right places.

So, uh, my wife and I, uh,
we've been married for 18 years.

We, we have five kids, three of
whom we've been, um, homeschooling

now for about six years.

and we kinda jumped into it
like most people do, you know,

not really having a clue.

Um, oh, let's try this curriculum,
let's do, let's do that.

and we never really
found anything that fit.

Um, you know, we, we would kinda piece
part a lot of stuff until I got to

the point where I was just… We were
building our own curriculum for our

kids, and everything was kind of offline.

Gregory Treat: Yeah

Zack Fava: Um, so Methane
kinda came just as-

Gregory Treat: how long ago was
that, that you start, kind of started

that, that homeschooling journey?

And how many kids do you have, by the way?

Zack Fava: Uh, so we, we have five kids,

and three of which are

of

Gregory Treat: shows your
commitment, you know.

It shows your commitment
to, uh, to the cause, let's

Zack Fava: Yeah, exactly.

You know, I built it because
it's what, um, I wanted.

And, and I built it out
of a, a need and a want.

So, um, yeah, it, it literally just
came across because it was like, well,

there's nothing out there like this
right now, and I have the ability to

do so, so I'm gonna jump on and do it.

And it kinda started off with a
governance and sovereignty being

the, the main focus of what this is.

Um, because the Department
of Education is, it's a joke.

Um, public school ha-
has become a nightmare.

But, you know, parents at home,
they don't really have a lot of

tools, and if they do, they're
kinda scattered throughout the wind.

You gotta chase them down, figure out
what's really going to work for you.

Um, so I kinda jumped on the, the
train, as a lot of people have.

Um, I, I'm not an absolutist when it comes
to AI, but I also see the benefits of it,

and the benefits of it is it actually
offers, you know, sovereignty.

So that, that's kinda where,
where Methion started and, you

know, where, where hopefully it's,
it's gonna take a lot of people

Gregory Treat: Yeah.

I mean, it's, it's, it's
been really interesting.

You know, I've, I've been doing a
series of, of where I think AI is going.

And, um, have, have, have you seen … I'm
sure you've seen the, the, the video of

the guy with the robot hands, and the,
the hands are turning a bolt really,

really fast, and somebody sticks their
finger in and the hands just stop, right?

Um, w- the thing that I think is
most interesting about that is

that's a safety protocol, right?

That's to make the robot safe.

But it also means, like, the
tolerances involved in being able

to do that allow for … Like,
that's, that's crazy precise, right?

Like, the, the ability … That, that
means that you can hold something

so precisely and move it so quickly
that if you've got three or four of

those robots, there's just a ton of
industrial processes that b- by nature,

like, that robot can physically do.

Now, maybe they, you know, do some
kind of, like, New York, you know, 3D

printing law where they try to nerf
the capacity to do it with software.

But if you've got a thing that can phys-
that physically has the tolerances and

the, the, the, that level of control,
that level of precision, that is a

mighty powerful thing to have at,
at the household sovereignty level.

I mean, maybe … I mean, I think a
lot of people are assuming that, that

it, it will have the, the kind of
precision that would allow it to build

another one of itself, or at least to
fix itself to a degree that, that, that

people would find remarkable compared
to the past, you know, 50 years of

hardware, like, let's say, right?

And again, you can't take that out
unless you remove the safety protocol,

which I, I don't think is gonna happen.

Um, so that's really interesting
as a, just as a technological,

you know, uniqueness.

Very different than what we've had.

Zack Fava: Oh, for sure.

And to kind of hit on the tolerance issue
and how important and how difficult it is.

So coming from the aeronautics
background, we would have to

build in tolerances for hardware.

And the tighter your tolerance, I mean,
you would see your budget just explode.

So the fact that you can just like
that is-- it's a huge cost saver.

But then a lot of people
just see it as a cost saver.

But the true entrepreneurs see something
like that, and they're like, "Oh,

that's an opportunity for me, for you,
for him, for her, for everybody." So

Gregory Treat: Yeah.

I mean, there was, there was a startup
recently, Figure, Figment, something

of this nature, um, I talked about
them, uh, last week on the, on the,

on the show, that was able to increase
their, their factory, their assembly

line by 300 times, uh, by adding in
the robots that they were building.

So the robots are, are the ones
prime- doing a whole bunch of the

building of, of their own, their own
r- r- of, of other robots like them.

It … This is a game changer.

These are, these are game
changing kinds of things.

Um, so yeah, so, so, so tell me about,
um, about Methean and kind of what,

what, what you see as the … You have
some, some really cool things on, on,

uh, you know, your, your website about
we want this to be parent-focused.

We want, we wanna preserve
the parents' sovereignty.

Tell me about kind of what you're … I
mean, obviously there's, there's lots of

stories about Alpha School and some of
these other AI, uh, education programs.

What would you say the, the kind of
the big failing, the big miss of those

programs is, and how is Methean different?

Zack Fava: I, I won't necessarily say
that it's a failure because I know that

a lot of people still want their kids
to go to a physical place, you know,

a school.

And I understand that, you
know, I'm not hitting on that.

I built this for the people that
want to pull their kids away from the

institution of school and essentially
build their own administration at home.

Gregory Treat: Угу

Zack Fava: so whi-while I see some,
some good points with, you know, alpha

schools, um, I, I also see that it's
still a little too closely linked

to what the problem is right now.

You know, you… Instead of
teachers, you have guides.

Instead of this, you have that.

So to me, it's not so different to
whereas removing yourself and your kids

from the system as a whole, but having
all the tools that you need to make it

your own while also being confident that,
oh, well, I'm not leading my kid astray,

um, but I'm also not
leading them to the wolves.

So there, there's just so much, um,
to, to being a parent, you know.

Any parent can admit to that, that you,
you want the absolute best for your

kids, and education is, is no different.

So I wanted to… This essentially
was born from the, the desire

to provide the best for my kids
and then for everybody else's.

So,

you know.

Gregory Treat: So, uh, so tell us, you
know, kind of like what, what are the,

the core features of Meathian and what,
what, what, what are the use cases

that you're, that you're aiming at?

And kind of give, give me,
give me your distinctives.

What are the, what are the,
the selling points that it can

do that other things can't do?

Zack Fava: Well, um, as I said,
it, it started as more of a, a

governance and sovereignty platform.

Um, and then it just-- I
kind of grew it from there.

Um, I was originally just going to,
to have it to where it would, um,

handle every… 'Cause it- state to
state, every requirement is different

for homeschool, so I wanted to

make Sure

that that was taken care of.

Um, you know, that it's not a worry
for anybody, whether you're in a

really strict state or a really,
you know, a completely free state.

So that's taken care of.

Um, the scheduling tool is
100% determined by the parents.

Um, the parents can even determine how
much input the AI itself has in, um, the

parents' end, but also the kids' end.

Um,

they can determine how, how
deep, um, the, the tutor can, can

really walk a kid through it, or
it could be totally base level.

So there it's… I made it
as customizable as possible

without being a, just
this gigantic headache.

Gregory Treat: Yeah.

So, so this is like if you're,
you're a homeschooling family, you,

you're like, you know, a Charlotte
Mason or, or a, uh, you know, there,

there's a couple of different,
you know, Montessori, classical,

you, you traditional unschooling.

Um, you know, you, you've got
something where you're, in many

ways, designing your own curriculum.

You might have templates, right?

The Charlotte Mason people have a
bunch of templates, but, but there's

still quite a bit more parent design.

Um, and I mean, even, you know, you're,
you're doing the lesson plans, right?

So you, you have your, your desires.

Maybe you have a full curriculum, maybe
you have a desire for a curriculum

as a parent, and you go into the
system, and you can either upload what

you've got or the AI can help you.

Is that, is that right?

Zack Fava: Correct.

Yeah, so I, it's a total
hybrid system to where

you can come in with, you know, with
books, um, as long as you provide

the, the publication, like the book,
the publication table of contents.

Gregory Treat: Угу

Zack Fava: can provide, um, lesson
plans for that, you know, external book.

Um, or you can literally just
use it as like a tracker, an, an

extern- like a curriculum tracker.

So like I said, it can be as
in depth as you want it to be.

You can utilize, um, the curriculum
that I'm building out within it 100%.

You can hybridize it.

Um, I just wanted it to be kind of an
all-encompassing homeschooling operating

system for any family that wants to use it

Gregory Treat: Okay.

So tell me, like, when, when
you say tracking, what does,

what does tracking mean?

Zack Fava: So is, say that they're
doing, um, like a Saxon math book.

Um, you would go in there and,
you know, take a snip- or a

snapshot of the table of contents,

and then as the parent, you would go in
and say, "Okay, well, here's the lesson

plan." Or you can have the AI, you
know, say, "Your, your children should

be doing this, that and the other these
days," and then it would just track it.

You or your child could
go in and track it.

You could put scores in, whatever.

Um, but essentially it's mastery-based.

So it's not just a click in the
box, okay, go to the next, um,

subject or, or the next lesson.

It wants to actually make sure
that you know what you're doing

and it's going to progress you or
progress you along, um, as such

Gregory Treat: So, so are you, is it
possible for you to set it up so that

your, your kid is actually, like,
taking the math problems in inside of

that system, or are they, they, they
writing them out and then feeding

their answers into the AI in some way?

What is the… I mean, I suppose
you could do both, but what is the,

what is the workflow like there?

Zack Fava: Yeah, so it, it is both.

Um, I'm… I have it to where you can
take pictures of items to plug in,

you know, take a picture of a page,

um, and, and plug it in.

Or, um, like I said, you can utilize
the, the AI build out, so you could

put in, um, the book that you're
using, and it could even create lessons

based on that book if you wanted to
do it all, um, online right there.

So,

Gregory Treat: Well, does it do
like the Khan Academy thing where

you're, you're kind of solving the
problems in the, in the system?

Or is it, is it, is it,
is it not quite that?

Zack Fava: Not quite that,

no.

Um, you're, you're maintaining
the, the answers currently,

um, outside on your own.

Um, I'm in the process of, of
wrapping that up, so that's

the part of the design aspect.

Uh, right now curriculum-wise,
I literally have the text.

So all the text is in place, um, and now
I'm essentially making it more usable

for, for the child rather than just a
sheet of paper with, with text on it.

You know, I want them to actually engage
with it, um, enjoy what they're doing

and, you know, actually learn from it.

Gregory Treat: Very cool.

Very cool.

So one of the things you have is, is
that y- it helps parents produce, like,

required documentation for homeschooling.

I mean, one of the, one of the things that
I, I've said before that I think AI will

really help with is compliance, right?

I think that, you know, right now
there's, there's a lot of things that

are-- where t- in order to be compliant,
you have to, um, you have to basically

be at the scale of a, of a Fortune 500
or maybe a Fortune 1000 company where

you can a- afford to employ a floor
of accountants and lawyers and people

that are gonna, you know, generate
all this paperwork and send it off.

And I mean, if the question is-- 'cause,
you know, AI, unless you do a bunch of

work in it, um, is it tends to produce,
you know, it's very obviously AI written.

It's AI slop, as they say.

Um, but compliance paperwork
does not care if it's AI slop.

Like, right?

If it, if it… I mean, in many
ways it kind of currently reads

it's just human slop, right?

Right now.

So the AI can generate endless amounts
of that and be able to, you know, put

that, you know, uh, if, if what you need
is to have filed a bunch of pieces of

paper, it can do that very, very quickly.

Uh, so tell us, tell us about what, what,
uh, what your AI does in terms of like

required documents and mastery records.

So you're-- y- basically it's about
producing those in case you need to.

Um, you know, there's, there's states
where you have to, uh, maybe not take

a test, but you have to file something
of your, of your lesson plans on like

an annual or quarterly basis, right?

Something of, something of that nature.

Um, for- fortunately, I'm in the state
of Texas, which doesn't, doesn't,

doesn't generally do stuff like that.

But, um, um, yeah, there's many
states where that's not true.

Zack Fava: Yeah.

Yeah.

So, um, we, we do have a compliance
section where you go in, you select,

um, your state, and then that
whole section will give you every

requirement for your specific state.

Um, but before that, you're building
out your, your children's, um, profile,

so then it'll also carry that over.

So it's not just gonna be like a, "Oh,
well, I'm doing it for this kid, now I

have to go back and do everything for
the other…" You know, it, it expedites

the process, makes it more efficient.

So it takes all of your information
that you're building in upon signing

up, carrying it over to, you know,
let, let's say you're in Maryland,

Gregory Treat: Угу

Zack Fava: and then every requirement
within Maryland, it'll… So i- if you

have to file immediate documentation,
it'll take care of that for you and

essentially just say, "Do you approve?"

Yes, you approve.

Kick it off.

Um, anything that needs to be tracked,
you can pull any documentation that

you need at any time, um, because
at the end of the day, it's, you

know, it's your documentation.

It's not the state's.

The states may like to think
that it is, but it's yours.

Um, so being able to provide it
is a click of the button away.

And like you said, this state compliance,
any type of compliance documentation is

essentially like technical documentation.

That stuff has read like AI
slob for nearly 100 years,

so this stuff handles it like that,

so.

Gregory Treat: yeah.

Absolutely.

So now, um, does, does the system,
is there a way for it to help

with grading and stuff like that?

Zack Fava: Yes.

So that'll be built into
the AI tutor itself.

Um, if you're utilizing that, if
you're pumping in, um, your answers

along with the questions, it'll run
through, grade it all, and provide

feedback, um, to the kids and to you.

And like I said, how at the beginning
you, you essentially gauge the amount

of input that the AI itself has.

Um, it'll feed-- Like, if you say
it's 100% limited, you have to pass

everything through me as the adult

or as their parent, it'll kick
back to you every single, um,

assignment that your child does.

You go in and approve it and say,
"Yes, they're clear to go on to the

next one," or you can hand it off to
the AI, um, to essentially do the same

thing, or you find a middle ground.

So

I, I built, I built a, a gauge
to where the, the parents can

decide how they want that handled

Gregory Treat: Very cool.

So, I mean, uh, in terms of the,
the, the technical side, what,

what, what models are being used?

What level… Is this, is this
something where you're hosting or

you're, you're bundling, you know,
a, a, a compute setup from some,

some provider or set of providers?

How does, how does that work?

Zack Fava: So I, I'm building it to
be completely online for anyone who

wants to, you know, utilize the cloud.

What, you know,

just h- how any other AI
kind of tool works currently.

But then also on the back end, it is
being built to be able to pull offline.

If you want to self-host, um, you can
put it on your machine and self-host

Gregory Treat: Oh, very cool.

Zack Fava: Yeah

Gregory Treat: Very cool.

Yeah, that's really interesting.

So it's sort of, it's sort of
model agnostic in that sense.

Zack Fava: Yes, exactly

Gregory Treat: Good stuff.

Good stuff.

Um, and then, you know, one of the things
that, that, uh, that there's a, there's

a group in Exit, uh, called the Paideia
Project that's been, that's been talking

about these ideas and thinking about them.

Uh, you know, one of the things that,
that I think is, is coming is people

being able to have, like, uh, you
know, projects that show their mastery

and, um, and, and be able to, to share
those and, and kind of document those.

I mean, even, even to the
extent of, you know, you know,

I prompted the AI to do this.

That's still, you know, going
to be a thing that you wanna be

able to- to- to show people and,
and explain what you're doing.

Um, you know, one of the, one of the
things that I've- I've found is e- even

as there's, there's a difference in,
between the skill of getting AI to do

something and the skill of explaining to
someone else how you got AI to do that,

um, which can, which can be interesting.

And, um, so, so ha- have you, have
you put any thought on, on that

topic or that, that, that framework?

Zack Fava: Essentially
kind of like a community?

Is that what you're referring

to?

yeah

I, I have.

Um, that, that is
definitely in the pipeline

because to me it's, it's a huge
aspect, um, for a child's ability to

learn and interact and really grow.

You know?

If… It's a way for them to prove
w- what it is that they're learning

and it builds confidence or it knocks
them down a peg when they need it.

So yeah, it's, it's in the
pipeline, that's for sure.

Gregory Treat: Yeah.

Uh, I mean, I think one of the,
basically the, the idea was, um,

you know, you have some business
and entrepreneurship curriculum.

You have, uh, some trade school type
stuff where, where, you know, people

could really learn how to, how to use this
to, to, um, kind of build, potentially

build a business or show their me- Te-
tell me, tell me about those things,

especially the trade school stuff.

That's interesting to me

Zack Fava: Yeah, so the, the trade school
specifically will take a little more time

because I want it to be, um, not just a
piece of curriculum where you can go and

then go and take a program at a college.

I want it to be all there.

Um, so that Yeah, so that's, that's
gonna take a little bit of time

to get actual certifications and

everything that you need in, in place for,
um, for kids to be able to, to do that.

Because, I mean, technically you
could have your 13-year-old start

and learn how to be an electrician,

um, and, and go through
all of that schooling.

And especially for the guys that
are in the trades, you know, your

kids, ideally you want them to
essentially apprentice under you.

So

this gives them the opportunity
to apprentice under you while

also being homeschooled 100%.

And, you know, having it all in-house,

uh, and pulling it away from these
institutions that have done everything

they can to, to really put us in a bad
situation is, is my end goal here, so.

Gregory Treat: Well, I think, um, yeah,
I wanna, I wanna talk to you about some,

some, some other things in the space.

Uh, but just kinda the final piece,
you, you have a, you have a, a very

attractive funding model to, to, to me.

I have seven children, and so you have
a, a one-time, like a, a, you're- you

have a family fee, and you do say, "We
don't care how many kids you have."

So, so tell me about that and how that,
how that works and, and, uh, and why

you did that 'cause I, I, I f- I thought
that was very, uh, very interesting

Zack Fava: Yeah, so I, I chose
to go down that road because

that's what I would want.

Um, I think that a lot of
curriculums rip people off.

Um, I don't think that something like
this you should be charging for kids.

Um, for me, i-if I don't get
rich off of this, I don't care.

Um, I think that building a legacy for
our kids in this country and anywhere

else is the absolute most important thing
that we can do as fathers, um, as mothers.

There, there's nothing that,
that is more important.

So that's why I didn't wanna
put a strain on anybody.

I wanted to build it, you know, to a price
point to where it's, it's attractive so

that it does scale based on that, but
then, you know, it, it doesn't leave

people in the poor house, you know?

I, I think that

anybody at any level should be
able to utilize, um, this type

of educational operating system.

Um, but then also certain states
that have ESA scholarships,

it falls within that as well, so then they

can use that.

Um, and, and you're not having to
pay, you know, $75,000 a year to

send your kid to Alpha schools.

Gregory Treat: For sure.

Yeah, I mean, you know, basically I
think you, you, it, it's, it's under

like $1,500 a year for, um, for the, for
the base, the base package for a family.

Um, that's, that's definitely
better than, than Apple School.

Um Okay, cool.

So, you know, I, we, we, we were talking
in advance of, uh, of this, of this

meeting about, uh, you know, some, some
other projects, uh, that are in the space.

So, uh, a, a gentleman named Ron Dodson,
uh, did a wonderful article called The

Return of the Aristoi, and he has this,
this marvelous, uh, this marvelous diagram

with a series of concentric circles, and
you're in the middle, and then you've

got kind of your, your data, and your
training, and the various e-enterprises.

Um, and, and I thought, you
know, I, I, I love that article.

I shared it with, you know,
probably hundreds of people, maybe

thousands at this point, um, uh,
as, as the, as my network grows.

I, I thought it was a really good
depiction of what, what the household

or the great house, uh, could look
like in the, in the AI future.

Um, you know, I use, I
use the term great house.

Uh, I think that's a, that's a really
powerful term to use because household,

uh, family for sure, but even, even
terms like household, unless you're

in kind of a narrow … Like, there's
some, some Presbyterian niches, God

bless the Presbyterians, that, uh,
that, you know, they, they still have a

fairly robust definition of household,
though I would say even, even for

them, uh, the, the definitions…

They don't have Calvin's
definition of, of household.

They don't have, um, they don't
have, you know, the, the, the older,

the older, stronger, uh, forms.

They don't, they don't really believe
in, because we haven't had for the past

probably 150 years, households that, that
y-you actually are treating… You know,

in the Reform world, they have the, the
three, the three Reformed institutions:

the family, the church, and the state.

And i-in that kind of classical
theological view, those are

three equal institutions.

The family is capable of contending
with the state and capable of

contending with the church, you
know, as, as a, as an institution.

And that's not really how we've done
family in the past 100, 150 years.

Uh, we have, you know, small, little,
weak nuclear families at, you know, as,

as Freud intended, I would, I would argue.

Um, you know, z- and, and whenever people
sometimes get, get, get crosswise with

me about that, and I… Well, I mean,
the guy who came up with that, um, the

guy who came up with that, you know, he,
he, he really wasn't a, a big fan of, uh,

of the West and Christian civilization.

You know, Freud, Freud did not like
the, the, the foundational principles

of what makes, uh, certainly
what makes America great and what

makes the West great as a whole.

you know, I, I really like
that article that Ron put out.

It'll be, it'll be, uh,
linked in the show notes.

Uh, just some great, some great
visuals and some great discussions.

Um, so how would you see, uh,
Methian fitting into that type of

comprehensive household system?

And I, and I wanna be clear, you
know, we're not there yet, right?

No one's built this.

No one… I, I don't think any
one company is, is in a position

to build it, uh, anytime soon.

There's a lot of work that needs to
be done, a lot of thinking that needs

to be done, a lot of relationships
that need to be built between

providers and experts in the space.

But Tell me, tell me…

Well, I first kinda, tell me
what you think of the idea.

Are you, are, are, does this, does,
is that, is that kind of what you're,

what you're trying to build towards?

Um, and if it is, how does, how does
Meethian fit into that larger project?

Zack Fava: Yeah.

Um, I, I had never, I, I've heard of
Ron before and seen him on podcasts and

stuff, but I had never seen that article.

So

reading through it, um, after you'd
sent it the other day, it was really

interesting, you know, how close
it, um, it hit home with Methian.

Um, and kind of just my
thought process behind it.

You know, the, again, the
sovereignty of the family, but then

also not choking a family off,

um, is, is huge because I think that
that's where a lot of people get

mixed up when it comes with, oh,
well, homeschool, you just wanna,

you know, shut your kids off and, or,
or your family, whatever it may be.

But now that we're at a stage where you,
you have full sovereignty, full control,

and if you have the community aspect built
in, which is why I said that's definitely

in the pipeline because it's, it's huge.

You- if, if you can build in
that community as a kid and

carry it on throughout your life,

you know, it's, it's great.

And then as you said, build
on that, that great house.

um, um, that the nation
is, is built off of people.

So I think the ability
to pull it back to that

is huge.

And, you know, stuff like Methian where
it'll be the educational, the child's

piece of this, um, it's, it's a very
important piece of the puzzle and it

needs to be, it needs to be implemented.

Um, you know, whether people stick with
it or not, they, you know, they, they

wanna keep going to school, whatever.

I, I think it's all failing and I
think that all that stuff is eventually

gonna come burning down because more
people are, are seeing it for what it

is and they're looking for solutions.

So

I wanted to create that
solution with Methian, um,

the, as the educational piece.

So

that, that's my goal.

That, that's how I see that it ties in,
um, to, to what he was writing about.

Gregory Treat: For sure.

Yeah, well, and I mean, I think one of
the things we have to recognize is, um,

that if we continue to have the kind of
categorical distinctions that we've had,

uh, the future does get very dystopian.

Now, what, what I always, I always
wanna f- tell people, you know, things

are only dystopian in, in the terms of
a certain social frame or in the terms

of a certain political system, right?

So, you know, if, if AI, you know,
destroys our democracy, right, as

we've enjoyed it or not for the
past 60, 70 years, that does not

necessarily mean it's gonna destroy,
you know, the constitutional republic

that is actually still … You know,
people forget this, um, you know,

or h- h- how would I say it online?

The elites don't want you to know
this, but the Constitution is

still actually the law of the land.

Um, now we need to, we probably
need to assert that and, and, uh,

you know, m- maybe, maybe we should
stop fortifying elections and start

fortifying constitutions, but, you
know, that's a, that's a, that's a

discussion for a different podcast.

But I think, I think there, there's a real
world … Like, y- you think about, um,

have you seen the, the, the posts online
where somebody gives a Claude prompt?

Uh, you know, put, fill this in
with your own words, dot, dot, dot.

Uh, Claude, or, uh, Dario and Amanda, and
it, it gives, like, these just really, uh

… They sound like internal communications,
um, which, which presumably they're not.

Presumably, you know, it would be crazy
for Anthropic to be loading, training

their own AI on their own personal
communications and, like, letting

that rest in the model at that degree.

That would be, um, ex- incredibly,
incredibly foolish and, you know,

only people with a radical Si-
Silicon Valley philosophy would

even dream of doing such a thing.

Um, for anyone that's not familiar,
if you Google … Uh, you probably

shouldn't Google effective altruism.

I don't know what pops up these days.

But, um, but it's, uh, the,
there's, there's, there's some,

there's some, there's some weird
things down that rabbit hole.

Um- But y- you think about the,
the context of, so let's say you

have, uh, you're, you're part of
these AI companies, and this will

soon be every company, right?

And your boss or someone in
the hierarchy of this hosted AI

has access to the full stack.

What does that mean?

That means they have access to every
query, to every prompt, to everything you

upload, to everything that you record,
to everything that the AI thinks about

you as it's building a model, as it's…

We, we need, we need a word that
is better than profiling, right?

Because profiling does not communicate
the degree to which that AI is trying

to figure out who you are and what
you want and what will serve you best.

And, and I mean, to get…
That gets very dystopian.

How can you, how can you live
with somebody who's got that

much power over you, that much
insight into your character?

Because that, that, like, the idea
that we can keep that level of power

inside the traditional role of a boss
at, at an employee, uh, uh, that you're

employed by, and you go into work from
9:00 to 5:00, and then you leave work,

and you have your kind of private
life outside of… This is nonsense.

Which is, of course, why all these people
are, are sleeping with each other, right?

This is why there's so many polycules at
the top of these, uh, these AI companies,

which is cr- which is just another,
like, what is going on here that, that,

that, that the, the, the people at the
top of, of, of this tech revolution

all seem to have this, this bed.

But I think, I think that's
part of what's going on.

I think they're building systems that
gain- give you profound insight into the

humans that use them, and that's just not
gonna fit within the care- the, the, the,

the, the structured relationship that
we've said, "Well, I can go in. I can

trade my time for money, and while I'm at
work, I adopt a certain persona, and my

boss respects that, and I respect that."

AI shatters that.

I mean, it was always
probably an illusion, right?

People have talked about, you know, the
boomers and their work harems in the past.

Um But I mean, with AI, like,
there, there's just no more… The,

the, the man behind the curtain is
exposed, and we're, we're… There,

there's no way for that to happen.

So the question is, would you,
would you rather have this dystopian

totalitarian relationship with a boss
who you have no moral insight into and

who has no, no duty to have any kind
of moral… 'Cause again, we, we have

this, this idea, well, well it's just
a, it's just an economic relationship.

It's just an economic transaction.

There's no, there's not supposed
to be any spiritual connection.

Do you want that?

Do you want somebody having AI access
to, to your profile, your, uh…

The, the chat is giving me ideas.

That your digital twin, um… Or
would you rather have, if, if someone

must have that, and, and probably
in order to use AI someone must have

that, would you rather have that
held in the hands of your family?

Another way to put this, would you
rather have that i- in the hands of

people who are economically responsible
for your whole life, who have skin in

the game for you if you fail, right?

I mean, one of the, one of the
things I've, I've said, and

I know I'm, I'm, I'm talking.

You know, well, I'm supposed to be
interviewing you, but, uh, but you know,

Zack Fava: No, no problem

Gregory Treat: One of the things that
I've, I've, I've, I've talked about in

the past is this idea that if you have,
um, you know, if, if, if you have too

much power in a relationship, then,
then you need a, um, y- you need a

moral… You need some level of moral,
uh, expectation of this person, right?

You think about that story
about, uh, Flock cameras.

There was a VP of Flock cameras that
apparently has been, uh, looking

at, at a certain age range of, of
children doing gymnastics, right?

Uh, not, apparently not in his home
state, uh, which, which suggests

a level of, of planning and
intent that is, is just horrific.

Um- S- the point is somebody's
gonna have that power.

Somebody is gonna be sitting in that chair
with access to those cameras, and right

now we, we only think about that from the
perspective of does he have the technical

qualifications to have that role, right?

We don't say, well, should
there be a, a moral process.

I mean, you think about, you know, with,
with a doctor or an attorney, we have

ethics boards for these people, right?

And, and, and, and you know, I'm not,
I'm not advocating for, for, you know,

a bar uh, for, for the tech industry.

I think there's, there's, you know,
the, the, the bars are in some ways

the last guilds and they, they are,
they're, uh, certainly would not

want to inflict that on your, your
currently unregulated industry.

But there is a need to kind of have a
conversation about who's, who's filling

these seats of, you know, overweening
power, where, where somebody's gonna

have, somebody's gonna have access to
those cameras, and we should probably care

about the moral character of that person.

Um, so I think, uh, the all, all,
all of that comes together with, um,

how, how would you see that question?

Then we're kind of moved away from y- if,
if Methean has something you, you wanna

talk about with that, but just as, as
somebody who's in the space, as somebody

who's thinking about AI, give me, give
me what, what, what is, what does that

series of reflections inspire in you?

Zack Fava: Yeah.

Like it's, right now it is the reality.

There is going to be someone sitting
there, um, in charge seeing everything.

But until, as you said, we get to a stage,
like with, with any, with any higher tech,

um, there, there always, there's, there's
steps to where you're going to get to

a stage where the individual has power.

So look at the, you know,
look at transportation.

They, they went with trains and then,
you know, boats and all that, and then

all of a sudden they had vehicles, and
each person could drive themselves.

So it's, I believe it's, we're gonna
get to a place where they're gonna try

really hard to prevent it, the powers that
be, but there's too much out there, um,

for, for really smart people and, and,
uh, entrepreneurial people to just take

it and make their own and, and hand it
over, uh, to, to the individual to, you

know, to utilize as a sovereign piece.

Um, but yeah, it's, it's interesting.

You know, I, I don't get, I, I, I don't
get black pilled about stuff anymore.

COVID kind of taught me to, to
just look at e-everything like

it's gonna get better tomorrow.

It'll get be- even if it gets
worse, it's still gonna get better.

You know, somewhere it's gonna get better.

Um, and that, that's just where
my mindset is with all this.

I know that they're gonna try, but
it takes good people on the other

side to do everything in their
power to prevent them from doing it.

Gregory Treat: Right.

Well, and I mean, I, I think that,
that working within the, the, you

know, the, the context of the thing,
I think there is value in organizing.

I think there is value in
having a certain scale.

But, you know, I'm, it… One of
the… Again, I think we're, as I

mentioned earlier, I think we're
hampered by Freudian mindsets, right?

Uh, you know, uh, as, as, as I've
said repeatedly, you know, my goal

is just to be a, an intellectually
consistent Burkean conservative.

And, you know, Burke's, you know,
his famous, his famous quote

about the, the platoons, right?

That families are these little platoons.

You know how, you know how
many people are in a platoon?

20 people, right?

Um, that's, that… I mean, maybe, maybe,
I mean, there, there are some, some,

uh, some folks that, uh, that, that
come on the call that, that, uh, have

or aspire to have many, many children.

You know, I, I have seven.

I, I, I, I, uh, I'm not
quite to their level.

Um, but even then, I don't know
anybody that's got 20 people

in their immediate family.

So when you're talking about a platoon,
you're talking about a larger organization

of people who work together, who come
together, um, who are able to, to have

an economic impact on each other's
lives, who are able to sponsor each

other and, and, and kind of, um, make,
make their family as a unit equivalent

to a corporation or a firm so that,
so that, so that you don't need to

go work for someone outside of that.

Um, and, and again, I think
we've, we've… There's, there's

certainly challenges to doing that.

There's skill levels to doing that.

There's gonna be people that are
better at it than, than others.

And I think what we've had in, in our
country for the last, you know, several

years has been, or the last several
decades is, well, we should just, everyone

should go work for the big systems, and
the big systems will treat you fairly.

Well, how's that working out for us?

I don't, I don't know.

I don't know that, uh, that, that
we… Number one, I don't know

that we are getting treated fairly.

Um, and, and, and even if we're
getting treated fairly, like the,

the fair level seems to be dropping
like a rock in, in recent years.

Um, you just don't have the, the,
the competence in our leadership,

um, that you did 60, 70 years ago.

Um, so it, it, this, this is
a really interesting time.

Um, the other thing that I wanted to
talk about, and we'll, we'll, we'll,

we'll talk a little bit about this.

I wanna give you a chance to kinda,
you know, say your, your thoughts about

it and then we'll, we'll move into the
Q&A and then, um, then some, some of

the people that are, that are present
from this project can talk about.

But, you know, you… I, I
showed you the Runcible stuff.

T- tell me about, I wanna do at
least a little bit about Runcible

here in the, the, the public
part before we go into the Q&A.

So tell me about Runcible and,
and, and, like how would you think

that that could interface with
what you're doing and, and how…

What, what, what pieces would
you think are still missing from

that, that broader vision of the,
the, the household AI between you?

Because, 'cause I think frankly between
you and Runcible, I think you, me,

thee, and Runcible have a, a fair
chunk of that, that vision actually

already, you know, pretty well outlined.

Um, but you know, the, obviously there's
probably gonna be, there's gonna be,

be more things that we could add.

Zack Fava: Oh, definitely.

Yeah.

You know, um, they're, they're at a much
grander scale, you know, high liability

enterprise government type scale.

So again, you, you have to, you
have to capture every piece.

Um, it, it's important for,
for us to, to get in everywhere

that we can while we still can.

So I think that it's great
what, what they're doing.

Um, whether they have, you know, every
piece of the puzzle together or not, I,

I don't think anybody does right now.

I don't think that we're at a place where
we can, but like you stated earlier, was

if you get all of these guys together and
you kind of create this, this overarching,

um, I don't really know what the term,
like what would be the best term for it,

but just, just, you know,
it, it would create a much

brighter future for everybody.

Um, we, we would feel a little more
secure in that we would have governance

by and of people that, that have the
same moral character that we do, or

at least, you know, very similar.

Gregory Treat: for sure

Zack Fava: but yeah, I, I
made a list here, and like I

said, I can send this to you

after the fact and everyone can get to it

Gregory Treat: we'll
put it in the show notes

Zack Fava: Yeah.

But, uh, so let's see here.

I, I made a couple notes for Runswell.

So something like the, uh, so Runswell
does not replace foundation models.

It uses them correctly.

Uh, models are hypothesis engines.

So we, we essentially have that exact same
thing built in to where you can utilize

existing pieces while having your own,
um, wants, needs, desires, whatever,

you know, your own thesis built into it

so that it is not something that, oh,
well, this is what I want, and then it

gives you what it wants to give you.

There's, there's actual governance,

and I think that that's the biggest
piece, and it, it is kind of exploding

right now in almost any aspect
of AI, is the governance of it.

But you're starting to kind of see
it in more of an enterprise level

where, um, oh, well, this business
needs, you know, its, its profits

to be a certain percentage, so
I need to govern to this point.

But a moralistic governance is far more
important, and it's a little trickier.

So really hammering at that is, is huge.

So it, it's good that they, they
have that built in, you know, for,

for a more enterprise level product.

Gregory Treat: Well, I mean, I don't know.

I think, I think, you know, if
we, if we think about, like,

the household AI idea, right?

So what do you need for that?

You need, you need an, obviously an
education piece for the children.

You need probably some level
of, of household management.

You know, what, what are the … You're,
you're, you're buying, you know,

uh, you're buying different things.

You're, you're, you're doing food.

You're doing various types of prep work.

Um, you know, there's, there's a
surprising number of people that

are starting to get involved.

I mean, and, and, and, and AI and robotics
will make this even more possible as

they kind of push manufacturing down
to more and more decentralized levels.

People are talking about being
able to make their own clothes.

People are talking about being
able to, to make their own tools

for a whole variety of things.

I mean, again, the one … If you've
got one robot arm that, that can do what

these new robot arms can do, it, it is,
it is incredible how many applications

you could potentially apply that to.

Um, you know, s- talking to a guy,
if you've got, you've got one of

these humanoid robots and, you know,
you're using them for some, some

project, and then you need to do a
construction project I mean, why not

have the robots try to do it, right?

Why not have them work at night or when
nobody's there or, you know, in, in,

you know, conditions where humans can't

can barely even see,
'cause they can see, right?

Like that, that, that's
gonna be a fascinating thing.

And then for a lot of, a lot of our
guys that have small businesses,

like the difference between the money
you're spending on your house and your

bus- I mean, you gotta have … you
gotta track those things differently

for tax purposes and all that, but
the idea that this is a different

operation is highly artificial, right?

Like, this is one group of people.

When, when your people go over…
Like, if, if, if, if one part

of your business fails, right?

So, so in, in my business I employ,
um, two sisters and, and, and, and,

and… well, probably two brothers
and a sister, and then another sister

works in a, in a related thing.

Uh, if one of them goes down or one
of them has a fight with each other

or they, their, their, you know,
their family drama, their family drama

is not separate from my business.

Does this make sense?

Right?

A- and in some sense, like the idea that
it ever was… And, and by the same token,

you know, if I- if my wife and I are not
on the same page, that, that is, is not

separate from my ability to make money.

If, if, if a mistake gets made, if we,
if we have a big blow-up with a client,

it, it, it, it flows through everything,
'cause it's all kinda one thing.

It's one group of people.

Um, and I think there's a lot of
friction in switching between these,

these different social ideas, right?

Which are kinda, you know, they're all,
they're all kinda k- kinda artificial.

And so having this ability to have the
education piece, to have the household

management piece, to have the money-making
piece, maybe even to have like a social

media marketing, 'cause again, for a small
business owner, you don't really have

like a, a separate social media presence.

Like, the idea that you can have
opinions or thoughts that are, that

are not going to immediately be
connected to, uh, everything that,

that, that's your business, right?

Uh, you know, I was, I was
reading a story about the, the

founder of, uh, CrossFit, right?

Um, and, and, and he, you know,
was, was basically canceled in,

in 2020 for one tweet, right?

Uh, one tweet.

They, they, they just basically
liquidated his business over the course

of like 72 hours, um, and then he, he
sold out to, to, to Berkshire Hathaway,

who then ran CrossFit just absolutely
into the ground, uh, a- a- apparently

purely for ideological reasons.

I can't find any, any alternatives.

There's no reason for them to,
to behave the way they did.

They starved the thing of
capital and, uh… Anyway, great

brand, totally, totally wrecked
for no, no apparent reason.

Um, but I mean, it w- and now he
wasn't even a small business anymore.

He was a quite large business,
but it was him, right?

And you know, you think about,
you know, people like Elon.

Elon is the brand.

Right?

I mean, in many ways, like especially
after all of that nonsense with

that Delaware judge and, and Elon's
compensation package, like I'm

looking for… If I wanna give Elon
money, I wanna give Elon money.

I w- I'm looking for some legal vehicle
that means I'm gonna give Elon money.

He can, he can do with it whatever
he wants to do, and then no…

I don't- I, I actually, uh, am, am less
enthusiastic about being, you know,

in the same bucket of people as the
institutional investors in Tesla, right?

Like that, that, that does
not make me happy, right?

Um, which, which is a fascinating…
And, and I think many people online and,

and just kind of that I've, that I've
met and talked to feel the same way.

That they, they sort of are like,
"Man, I, I wish we didn't have to be in

these same vehicles having these same
relationships." Um, so you know, it's

a, it's a, it's a fascinating, um, it's
a fascinating time to be alive, so.

Zack Fava: You know, and, and on that
point, you, you have the, a, a couple

of these guys that are w- you know,
way up there, the multi-billionaires,

they, they leak out a truth here and
there every once in a while, whether

it's by accident or intentional, where
they say, you know, "Within the next

few years you're gonna see solopreneurs
being billionaires, trillionaires."

And what they're not adding to that is
that, you know, with the advancements of

AI, you can essentially have a Fortune
500 company right there for one person.

You have your whole operating system,
you have your whole team, you know,

legal, e- everything, you know?

It's just, it's opening so many doors,
and I think that a lot of people are

scared, a lot of people are excited.

So, um, it, it'll definitely be
interesting to see how quickly we

get there or how long they kinda
drag their feet to, you know, to

allow the masses to get there,

Gregory Treat: Yeah.

Well, it's a, it's, it's a
very, like, like I said, it's

a very interesting moment.

It's a very interesting moment.

And I think many ways the, the kind
of the thing that we're dancing around

is, is who, data sovereignty, right?

'Cause in, in a couple of years,
and, and we'll, we'll have

to see kind of how this goes.

I, I mean, I've heard some people
say there, there's real world

scenarios where human sourced data
becomes incredibly valuable, right?

'Cause there's, there's negative
consequences from training

AIs on AI-generated data.

You can only do that so many times.

There's some, there's some limit, uh,
to how, how frequently you can, you can

do that before you get weird outcomes.

So having humans that are actually
generating human data, which a- at

some point will probably be- mostly
consist of prompts to AIs, right?

That's gonna become a very, very
valuable, very, very, um Like

specific thing that people want.

And again, if you get access to that,
you have access to… I mean, what

could, what couldn't you do to a
person that you have access to their,

their complete AI profile, right?

If you know all of the prompts and you
can see the reasoning as it's going, you

know w- you know what they've been fed,
you know what they're, they're putting

out, you know everything about them.

And so if you don't have a, a, a love for
them, an affection for them, a covenantal

duty for them, I mean, the, the…

That, that again is where there is a real
dystopian future here, uh, if, if people

don't react intelligently to that reality.

What we have to do is say, okay, w- w-
we, we… And this is another, another

point, similar point to this, is,
is what we're, what's gonna have to

happen with limited liability, right?

So if you've got a guy that's doing, like,
financial advising in, i- and, and feeding

it into an AI, and that AI is instructing
a whole bunch of people outside of the…

And, and, and there's a bunch of, you
know, limited liabilities companies

that, that he, that he, he is not
technically giving them advice.

There's no legal relationship there,
but he is the one pressing the button,

and that's what's causing a bunch of
people down here to either make a bunch

of money or lose a bunch of money.

The idea that we're just gonna say,
"Oh, well, you know, by the technical

rules, he's, he's outside of the,
uh, the liability chain, so sorry,"

that's… I mean, maybe that'll happen
once or twice, but there will be a

unbelievable public outcry a- and
things will start to shift, right?

So it… You know, that's always, you
know, when, when I paint these things.

It'll only be dystopia for people
that, that remain, that keep wanting

to pretend that the old system is still
what's, what's governing us, right?

For people that are willing to say,
"Oh, this is, this is what we're doing

now. This is the way we're going. Here
are the new realities of power and

privilege and, and capacity, and the
new hierarchies that are emerging," some

of which, not all, but some of which
will actually, many of which I think,

will be competence hierarchies, right?

And I'm, you know, for, for
all intents and purposes,

basically still a right-winger.

And so I, you know, I like
hierarchies of competence.

That's core to my, uh, my worldview.

So I'm, I'm… I think we, we, we have
to take seriously the possibility that

if you do nothing, you could very easily
wind up in a very dystopian situation.

But if you respond intelligently
to the, the, the, the marvelous

opportunities that are coming, um,
I think, I think there's never been

a more interesting time to be alive.

So any, any final comments you
want before we go, uh, kind of

behind the paywall to the Q&A?

Zack Fava: Uh, nope

Gregory Treat: All right.

All right.

Well, really appreciate you, and,
uh, to everybody that's, that,

that's listening, if you, uh, you
know, reach out to me on Substack if

you wanna, uh, get behind the Q&A.

Um, and, uh, and, uh, let's,
let's, let's go into that now.

All right.